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  1. #1001
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meow Mint Tea View Post
    This probably applies more to sensors, but inferior Se is really irritating. Ni has this dreamy, airy-fairy quality to it. A lot of INTJs come across as having "understood" all the relevant aspects of the world, or a situation, through reading about it in a book; then they feel justified in their expectations because they did all that reading. They don't get that that kind of knowledge is superficial and inadequate, and that there's no substitute for real-world experience. They seem more like dreamers than the practical system-builders they insist they are. "Be we have Te!" Yes, you do. It's a slave to your detail-blind, concrete reality-avoidant Ni.
    It does no good to have Te if you do not use it. A hallmark of INTJs is the desire to make our abstract visions become reality. That doesn't work until and unless we get the kind of real-world experience you mention. This is frequently done through experimentation: if I do X, Y should happen. Does it? Does it do it every time? What if I want Z to happen instead? Trial and error, but short-circuited by the intuition that came up with the idea in the first place. You might be surprised how much we can learn from books, or the internet, but even we don't believe it until we see it produce results.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #1002
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    This probably applies more to sensors, but inferior Se is really irritating. Ni has this dreamy, airy-fairy quality to it. A lot of INTJs come across as having "understood" all the relevant aspects of the world, or a situation, through reading about it in a book; then they feel justified in their expectations because they did all that reading. They don't get that that kind of knowledge is superficial and inadequate, and that there's no substitute for real-world experience. They seem more like dreamers than the practical system-builders they insist they are. "Be we have Te!" Yes, you do. It's a slave to your detail-blind, concrete reality-avoidant Ni.
    Why would you consider that superficial and inadequate? I would imagine both book reading an real experience are equally important. If Edison had never read a book in his entire life, we would have no light. It doesn't matter how much experimentation you do, the knowledge to go further has to come from some intellectual level. Someone had to teach you to work with cars. You didn't just start taking parts out of a car and start sticking them back together again.

    I took a class one time called Chain Saw Repair. Through the entire class the teacher spent a great deal of time trying to guide us through the experience because he knew that we weren't just going to guess where a part went and what it did.

    Not all INTJs may have as much real world experience as book knowledge, but plenty do. Especially as one gets older. Most of the issues people seem to have with INTJs, has to do with dealing with immature INTJs.

    The day dreamer thing seems odd. What difference does it make if I'm day dreaming? As long as the task at hand gets done and it gets done right. I've never had anyone find me irritating because I was a day dreamer. Also, it's really not something I can control very well. I think it will benefit you to understand that about INTJs. I just tend to space out, it's how I work. You say something or I think of something and my brain will go on tangents, connecting all sorts of seeming unrelated ideas. INTJs are obsessed with contextualizing and looking for insights.

    Sometimes it actually helps me work and helps me come up with ideas, innovations, and insights because it's meditative. In other words, the things that make INTJs uniquely INTJs, are the things you hate about us. Or would you rather have INTJs morph into ESTJs?

    People want to invalidate the input INTJs bring to the table because they don't think exactly like you expect them to. But we need all personality types to make a better society, or else they wouldn't exist. They would eventually become obsolete like most things that have no benefit.

  3. #1003
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    And this is how Ji types learn they can sell a Je type anything with good enough rationalization(s), and based on subjectivity paraded as objectivity. It took time for me to learn that Je types wanted an explanation rather than a justification, and that there's an expectation of negotiation further involved to see what idea proves more objectively sound. Since Ji can more clearly see the long-term ramifications of any particular decision, I can see with a high level of probability what I need to say to convince you of a short-term outcome. Sometimes the answers can even be (imo) plain stupid.
    This sounds more like a you problem, than an INTJ problem.

    In the case of the coffee pot, an answer to that question should simply be another question: "Why does it matter where the coffee pot is?"
    It doesn't. We don't care where you put the damn coffee pot. We just want to know why. We want to know what makes you tick. We have no specific alternative place in mind, we're just curious as to why the coffee pot went from point A to point B and what your reasoning was.

    INTJs ask questions because they want answers and because they want to know a little bit about you. INTJs tend to see everything as a giant mechanism that needs to be taken apart, analyzed, and put back together again. This is just how I study things and how I understand them. I think it's amusing that this would bother anyone when it's really a fairly innocuous thing to do. Some people have no concept of neutrality though and they have to interpret the negative or positive in everything. There is no in between, there is no neutral, and there is no middle ground for some people. This is something I've learned about people over time, usually I see this in a lot of SFs and in a lot of NFs. But I'm not making any stereotypes, it can be seen anywhere. Some people just take things personally.

    This question would address the underlying assumptions to the initial questioning on why it has been placed where it has been placed.
    No it doesn't. That is your brain interpreting that and we are not responsible for what your brain interprets. Personality types mature when they finally start to realize that about others, and vice versa. A lot of INTJs start to develop a facade once they mature because they start to realize that certain kinds of people are sensitive to that sort of thing. Personality types learn to adapt to each other.

    Because honestly -- and I get that sometimes a question is just a question framed purely for the purposes of understanding -- 90% of the time it's not. So why pretend that it is?
    So you're like a mind reader now?

    The audience to the question has the capability to extrapolate beyond the question and see a gradation of judgement in that. I can read that there's more to the question than the purpose of understanding, so this is why it is grating.
    And being on the receiving end of an over dramatic person who chooses to interpret everything you say as judgmental, isn't irritating?? Let's get to the heart of the matter; I am not responsible for your judgement. That is a you thing, that is something you're responsible for.

    Why do you think everyone is out to get you? Why do you think your boss is jumping at the bit to criticize you? Are you really that insecure?

    This is not something I'm responsible for or something I have any control over. If asking you a question puts you over the edge, I don't really know how to respond. Except with mild amusement at the spectacle.

    And, who cares if the coffee pot is now located 90cm to the left of where it usually is? (Trust me, I know who cares; it's a rhetorical question more than anything.)
    We don't. We never cared. Our intention was to understand something by asking questions. INTJs are deconstructionist in their approach to understanding things.

    An INTJ would expect this:

    INTJ: "So why did you move the coffee pot?"

    Other personality: "1. Because I think more people would have easier access to the pot here by the fridge. 2. I think it looks more aesthetically pleasing. 3. People have been complaining about it being over there

    This is often not what we get. We often get this:

    INTJ: So why did you move the coffeepot?

    Other personality: "What is that supposed to mean?? Are you criticizing me?"

    INTJ: ???

    Other types do not think in a "This is the best way for this" format. They won't enter into negotiation because they're not wired to do think that way.
    Often times INTJs don't really think that way either. If I'm not the supervisor, it isn't my job to hold the structure together. I'm, at the most, mildly amused watching you fall on your face by making the wrong decision. I have no problem watching the world fall apart because no one has given me the responsibility of keeping it together. It my responsibility is to clean and organize shelves, I will make sure that those shelves are the neatest mother fuckers you've ever seen. I will do this even if the entire business has gone bankrupt. I may give you some helpful advice along the way, but 9 times out of 10 you tend to ignore that and insist your decision is the right one.

  4. #1004
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Often times INTJs don't really think that way either. If I'm not the supervisor, it isn't my job to hold the structure together. I'm, at the most, mildly amused watching you fall on your face by making the wrong decision. I have no problem watching the world fall apart because no one has given me the responsibility of keeping it together. It my responsibility is to clean and organize shelves, I will make sure that those shelves are the neatest mother fuckers you've ever seen. I will do this even if the entire business has gone bankrupt. I may give you some helpful advice along the way, but 9 times out of 10 you tend to ignore that and insist your decision is the right one.
    Interesting. Not being the supervisor never stopped me from stepping in when I saw something needing to be done. If I had to organize the shelves, not only would they be organized, but I would probably make up a list of everything on them, and another list of things that should be there but aren't, and would procure such things if I could do so cost effectively. I might see the need for more shelves, or for the shelves to be moved/reconfigured (just like the coffee pot), and rectify that.* In between I would probably also be showing 3 people how to use the photocopy machine, fixing computer trouble for a handful more, and making wacky conversation with the janitor. (This usually teaches people to give me boring and limited job like "organize the shelves".)


    *I actually did this much of the list when left to mind the shop for a week while my boss was out of the country. I was the only one around, hence not possible to do the rest. In this case, I hadn't even been told to organize the shelves, but the need was dire.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  5. #1005
    Walking in the Rain Forever's Avatar
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    @Felix5

    Do you mind editing your posts to put the person you are replying to? It'd be helpful, thanks.
    Sun: ♈️ Moon: ♓️ Ascendant: ♒️
    obviously you're going to get nothing from reading this
    I find that the illusions sometimes are more beneficial to my reality than what I project as 'reality'

  6. #1006
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    Interesting. Not being the supervisor never stopped me from stepping in when I saw something needing to be done.
    I've been burned by the fire too many times to keep going back. I'm a cynical INTJ. When you've had the enormous negative workplace experience I've had, you learn to stop trying to help people. Sometimes helping people can get you in trouble. I can't tell you how many times I've been thrown under the bus for it.

    Not to mention, when I get a supervisor such as an ENTP, they will not listen to a single thing you say. The only valid viewpoint is theirs.

    If I had to organize the shelves, not only would they be organized, but I would probably make up a list of everything on them, and another list of things that should be there but aren't, and would procure such things if I could do so cost effectively.
    I do this myself, but it doesn't seem to matter. No matter how many times I tell my supervisor what we need, we never seem to get it. I can't fault her because she has no control over it. The system is beyond screwed up and we never get the inventory we need. We have overstock that is basically overflowing off of the shelves.

    By the way, I work in retail lol.

    I might see the need for more shelves, or for the shelves to be moved/reconfigured (just like the coffee pot), and rectify that.* In between I would probably also be showing 3 people how to use the photocopy machine, fixing computer trouble for a handful more, and making wacky conversation with the janitor. (This usually teaches people to give me boring and limited job like "organize the shelves".)
    Ah. I've had many times where I'll be ringing people out, conversing with the customers, greeting new customers that come in through the door, and listening to my ENTP supervisor telling funny stories about her family.

    Overwhelming, chaotic, and insanity is how I would describe my workplace experience. I crave structure, but I don't think anything i say will make a difference. In fact, I get tired of thinking of little things everyone forgets and never getting appreciation for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Do you mind editing your posts to put the person you are replying to? It'd be helpful, thanks.
    What difference does it make at this point?

  7. #1007
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    I've been burned by the fire too many times to keep going back. I'm a cynical INTJ. When you've had the enormous negative workplace experience I've had, you learn to stop trying to help people. Sometimes helping people can get you in trouble. I can't tell you how many times I've been thrown under the bus for it.
    Ah, but I don't do it to help people. I do it because it needs to be done, and because I can.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #1008
    Senior Member Ursa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Sometimes it actually helps me work and helps me come up with ideas, innovations, and insights because it's meditative. In other words, the things that make INTJs uniquely INTJs, are the things you hate about us. Or would you rather have INTJs morph into ESTJs?

    People want to invalidate the input INTJs bring to the table because they don't think exactly like you expect them to.
    Please don't import sentiments that I do not have into my text. I was nowhere near that particular. There is no need to become acrimonious.

  9. #1009
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meow Mint Tea View Post
    For most people, it's the detachment. Relationships are cited commonly as the INTJ's weak spot. They don't seem to understand how people work, which at best leads to awkwardness but more usually leads to poor decisions when it comes to the human element. Leave it to an INTJ to underestimate or overestimate people — horribly.

    This probably applies more to sensors, but inferior Se is really irritating. Ni has this dreamy, airy-fairy quality to it. A lot of INTJs come across as having "understood" all the relevant aspects of the world, or a situation, through reading about it in a book; then they feel justified in their expectations because they did all that reading. They don't get that that kind of knowledge is superficial and inadequate, and that there's no substitute for real-world experience. They seem more like dreamers than the practical system-builders they insist they are. "Be we have Te!" Yes, you do. It's a slave to your detail-blind, concrete reality-avoidant Ni.
    Hmmm, you're idealizing Ni
    Next you'll tell us that when you run into some person who has some ability that you think is awesome is automagically going to be the Ni person of your dreams. In the mean time the person is probably an ISxJ.

  10. #1010
    Senior Member Ursa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Next you'll tell us that when you run into some person who has some ability that you think is awesome is automagically going to be the Ni person of your dreams. In the mean time the person is probably an ISxJ.
    Awesomeness is not determined by type.

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