• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INTP] Dominant-Tertiary loops of INTP's

Sunny Ghost

New member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,396
I've been trying to figure out my roommate for a while now... and I think I've finally come to the conclusion that he is stuck in a Ti/Si loop. (For an explanation on dom-ter loops refer to: Dominant/Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders)

I'm curious what some of the behaviors of one stuck in this particular way-too-introverted world would look like.

Description of my roommate: He displays a good bit of Ti. However, I never really picked up on any Se or Ne. He definitely didn't strike me as an INTJ. We clash quite a bit with our different modes of thinking. He definitely lacked Fi, and has very inferior Fe. However, he is controlling in a way that might distinguish one to be more of a J type, rather than a P. But he's careless and irresponsible when it comes to a lot of the things he needs to do. For example, he'll complain to me about not taking out the trash, and then will continue to talk down to me in a very negative fashion. Or constantly rearranges my belongings, or belongings of guest who come to visit me (he never has guests). But he can't seem to get our water bill paid on time. He's often paranoid. Very into conspiracy theories. He's accused me of things I've never done, such as snooping through his room. He deems me to be reckless and irresponsible though I've never not paid him money for any of the bills and always clean up after myself, and often after him, too. He micromanages me when I cook or clean. And his words are always loaded. His method for asking me to do something is always indirect. Ex. "You know to wipe down the surface of the washer when you spill detergent on it, right?" He sorta/kinda drives me completely insane. His emotions always seemed a bit forced and fake. His laugh is forced and always loud. He talks to himself and hums a lot. I mention the humming, because he often seems to be faking a level of comfort and happiness. He really seems to stick to things that he already knows and is comfortable with. He's not very adventurous when it comes to food or anything really. If he's found a method for doing something, he sticks with it. He often appears OCD due to his rigidness. Like according to him, my keys MUST go on a very specific nail of the keyholder by the door. And my jacket must go on a very specific side of the jacket holder. And the one couch is off limits to me, because that's where he sits. Etc. This had lead me to think he uses more Si. Perhaps my thinking is incorrect?

Those caught in a Si/Ti and Ti/Si loop are prone to the schizotypal personality disorder, according to my source. But I don't know that I fully understand it. How similar is it to schizophrenia?


___________________________________________________________________________
Edit: I forgot the second part of my questioning.

How WOULD one develop their less used Ne? I'm not sure how Ne truly works and wouldn't know how an INTP should exercise that side of their self.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Possibly very strong internal constructs about the world which are expressed externally in sensory rigidity - needing to control the concrete world and becoming upset when tangible things change or come into conflict with internal needs and expectations. (I wrote this before reading through your post)
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
To counter the trend of pathology-based thinking, I suggest reading Ross Reinhold's article: The Faces of Personality Type Development.
He uses an ENFP as an example and clearly discusses why the extraverted side of an ENFP (Ne-Te) is a normal side of the type, not a so-called "loop" or being "stuck."

Article is here:

http://www.personalitypathways.com/faces.html
 

Redbone

Orisha
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,882
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I think when Ne gets neglected, Ne-auxs stop trusting their ability to see things in new ways, to see the relationships between things...they just kinda give up, stop considering possibilities, and instead "go with what they know". They stop taking in information and can even see it as threatening and can become confrontational about it. I can even see this extending to their environment because it can cost energy in 'resetting' things...the less energy they have to devote to the outside, the more they can stay in their head where they are in control.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
How WOULD one develop their less used Ne? I'm not sure how Ne truly works and wouldn't know how an INTP should exercise that side of their self.

I would say the best way to do that is to seek out social encounters that he'd find rewarding, extroverted activity should entice him to use Ne more and solve many of the problems you're describing. Meditation and mindfulness training can also help as that would push him to focus on his senses as opposed to abstract notions.
 

baccheion

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
777
Schizophrenia is more Ni looping on itself, but either way, if what you say is correct, your roommate sounds messed up. What's his problem?
 

Sunny Ghost

New member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,396
Schizophrenia is more Ni looping on itself, but either way, if what you say is correct, your roommate sounds messed up. What's his problem?
He's just sorta nuts and intolerable. And it's not just my opinion that thinks so. We work at the same place, and everyone there has a similar opinion about him. I was simply naive by moving in and thinking that it could work out. He's far worse at home than at work.
 

Sunny Ghost

New member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,396
I would say the best way to do that is to seek out social encounters that he'd find rewarding, extroverted activity should entice him to use Ne more and solve many of the problems you're describing. Meditation and mindfulness training can also help as that would push him to focus on his senses as opposed to abstract notions.

It's really hard to talk him into social interactions. He talks down about most everyone we know. He has a set opinion and refuses to let it budge.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
It's really hard to talk him into social interactions. He talks down about most everyone we know. He has a set opinion and refuses to let it budge.

Then he isn't ready for it, meditation or some other form of mindfulness training should be the first step.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,449
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I've been trying to figure out my roommate for a while now... and I think I've finally come to the conclusion that he is stuck in a Ti/Si loop. (For an explanation on dom-ter loops refer to: http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14436)

I'm curious what some of the behaviors of one stuck in this particular way-too-introverted world would look like.

Description of my roommate: He displays a good bit of Ti. However, I never really picked up on any Se or Ne. He definitely didn't strike me as an INTJ. We clash quite a bit with our different modes of thinking. He definitely lacked Fi, and has very inferior Fe. However, he is controlling in a way that might distinguish one to be more of a J type, rather than a P. But he's careless and irresponsible when it comes to a lot of the things he needs to do. For example, he'll complain to me about not taking out the trash, and then will continue to talk down to me in a very negative fashion. Or constantly rearranges my belongings, or belongings of guest who come to visit me (he never has guests). But he can't seem to get our water bill paid on time. He's often paranoid. Very into conspiracy theories. He's accused me of things I've never done, such as snooping through his room. He deems me to be reckless and irresponsible though I've never not paid him money for any of the bills and always clean up after myself, and often after him, too. He micromanages me when I cook or clean. And his words are always loaded. His method for asking me to do something is always indirect. Ex. "You know to wipe down the surface of the washer when you spill detergent on it, right?" He sorta/kinda drives me completely insane. His emotions always seemed a bit forced and fake. His laugh is forced and always loud. He talks to himself and hums a lot. I mention the humming, because he often seems to be faking a level of comfort and happiness. He really seems to stick to things that he already knows and is comfortable with. He's not very adventurous when it comes to food or anything really. If he's found a method for doing something, he sticks with it. He often appears OCD due to his rigidness. Like according to him, my keys MUST go on a very specific nail of the keyholder by the door. And my jacket must go on a very specific side of the jacket holder. And the one couch is off limits to me, because that's where he sits. Etc. This had lead me to think he uses more Si. Perhaps my thinking is incorrect?

Those caught in a Si/Ti and Ti/Si loop are prone to the schizotypal personality disorder, according to my source. But I don't know that I fully understand it. How similar is it to schizophrenia?


___________________________________________________________________________
Edit: I forgot the second part of my questioning.

How WOULD one develop their less used Ne? I'm not sure how Ne truly works and wouldn't know how an INTP should exercise that side of their self.

So, have you confronted him about any of this? Maybe you need to work on your Se just as much as he needs to work on his Ne....
 

Sunny Ghost

New member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,396
So, have you confronted him about any of this? Maybe you need to work on your Se just as much as he needs to work on his Ne....
It's impossible. I have tried. It's my use of Se that get's me into trouble with him. That's when we wind up in fights and he'll usually start talking down to me instead. He would prefer I were more passive and submissive. For an ISFP, I can be quite aggressive. And I call him out on his crap when he throws it at me.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Nobody wants to be a big dang boring Si user.
Being all moderate and balanced is a good way to unlock your greatest weaknesses within!
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,449
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
It's impossible. I have tried. It's my use of Se that get's me into trouble with him. That's when we wind up in fights and he'll usually start talking down to me instead. He would prefer I were more passive and submissive. For an ISFP, I can be quite aggressive. And I call him out on his crap when he throws it at me.

How does he talk down to you?

Usually in situations like this, I've found that there are mutual misunderstandings going on. There are a few things you've said in this thread that indicate that you hold certain beliefs that, if expressed, would contribute to the conflict, not ameliorate it and reach the kind of resolution you want.

It seems to me that you want him to be "more normal"' like you, because you pity him, and you want to get rid of that feeling of pity. I suppose that's fine, but have you ever entertained his opinions on the matter? Seems to me that if you're trying to help someone, their opinions should enter into it.

Don't approach him as a superior he can "learn something from." I assure you, you wouldn't be the first person to do that. Approach him as an equal. If you're going to prod him to be more social, because you think it would be for his own benefit, you're probably going to need to do it differently than you've been doing it.

Furthermore, keep in mind that NTPs and SFPs can both have the best intentions towards each other, and still not have things work out smoothly. The way they communicate is just too different.

I think of Se as "local" and Ne as "global". Se is very good at observing the here and now. Ne kind of sucks at this, but is good at seeing as how it might relate to some larger picture.

I wonder if what you see as "talking down" is just his attempts to find the root cause of all this.

I would suggest framing it as a pracitical thing, rather than as a moral thing of what "people are supposed to do." He probably sees that as something like you talking down to him.

I think NTPs have a tendency to view SFPs as fun, but they also mistrust them a little. SFPs seem to take different and contradictory positions on things in different contexts. Us NTPs, to be honest, have a tendency to view this is either false or foolish. It's probably not that simple though. It's probably, again, relating to Se being local and only interested in the immediate environment, so the SFP probably just sees it as a pragmatic adaptation to the situation, or something that was "true for that moment."

Also, I think being upset about being "called out on his crap" is something that is pretty universal, and not unique to INTPs. I'm sure you do it, too. If you get upset when you are called out on your crap, why shouldn't he? Because it makes you uncomfortable when he does it?



. And it's not just my opinion that thinks so. We work at the same place, and everyone there has a similar opinion about him.

I hope you don't bring this up, because he is almost certainly not going to listen this. Why would he? "Oh, I admit that I suck, and let me start not sucking from now on, even though the things I need to not suck make me really uncomfortable?" Do you really expect him to react that way? You're basically trolling his inferior Fe, whether you intend to or not.

Do you like being told that everyone thinks you suck, and that your suckiness is an objective fact? (or maybe it's not suckiness, but rather, being scatter-brained.)

I don't think SFPs understand people as well as they claim they do, and it's stuff like this that makes me think so. SFPs are just good at not caring what people who "don't matter" think. This gives them confidence, which does give them an advantage in many social situations, but when it comes to interpersonal conflicts, well, let's just say that even a "robot" like me gets that people don't like being told that everyone thinks they suck.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Recently, [MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] asked why nobody discusses the tertiaries of ESFPs (or was it ESFJs?).

(She'll probably get mad and say I misquoted her.)

I'll tell you why: they don't exist to talk about.

Tertiary theory only seems to work for intuitives, either dom or aux, because intuitives have a knack for taking on the traits of other types.

Sensors don't do this.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Recently, Jennifer asked why nobody discusses the tertiaries of ESFPs (or was it ESFJs?).

(She'll probably get mad and say I misquoted her.)

I wouldn't know, I don't remember the conversation at this point. ;)

But for you, I'll get mad whenever you want me to! (Just say when.)

I'll tell you why: they don't exist to talk about.

Tertiary theory only seems to work for intuitives, either dom or aux, because intuitives have a knack for taking on the traits of other types.

Sensors don't do this.

Interesting. So is this an observation you've made, or is it how you theoretically think it should work, or what?
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I wouldn't know, I don't remember the conversation at this point. ;)

But for you, I'll get mad whenever you want me to! (Just say when.)



Interesting. So is this an observation you've made, or is it how you theoretically think it should work, or what?

My view is not theoretical. For over a year I considered tertiary theory versus reality, and found tertiary theory wanting.

But I also use the valid insights found in many of the posts here. For example, when a typologist says "my mother seems like both an INFJ and ISFJ at the same time, I'm so confused!", this person is making a valid observation, and is only confused because of the false theory that everybody has to be a single MBTI type.

So when [MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] notices that nobody (except for the one banned douchebag I mentioned) discusses ESFJ tertiaries, I not only consider it a valid observation, I also see that it points toward the destruction of tertiary theory.

It's up to those who believe tertiary theory to haul out the evidence to support it. Maybe the evidence is out there, but nobody is bothering to discuss it. Or it could be that the MBTI is so dominated by iNtuitive types that they tend to project their own weirdness on to the Sensor side of the aisle.

And that "weirdness" is already known to the MBTI typologists. It involves the way that iNtuitives can seem to "change type," especially when it comes to being seen as Sensors - partly, I think, because we iNtuitives live in a Sensor world and know we are different from the majority, but also because we have a natural insight into the behavior of others that allows us to attune to, and emulate, their particular mind-sets, even until it becomes a habit, and eventually, a kind of sub-personality in its own right.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Well, let's cover all the bases: Is it because Dom-Tert loops just aren't discussed by what amounts to a bunch of INxx's on a web forum because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts and introverted Doms and more easily notice those, or it is because they truly don't exist whether for your reason or another?

Maybe it would help to consider what an ESFP dom/tert loop would look like -- SeTe. Do we ever see behavior from an ESFP who doesn't trust their Fi, so they resort to Te domination. I'd go through various extroverted types and ask "Does this ever seem to happen?" if you can't remember ever seeing it, then that does either say Dom-Tert theory is hackneyed or that it only exists with certain configurations (whereupon you'd have to determine the pattern).
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Well, let's cover all the bases: Is it because Dom-Tert loops just aren't discussed by what amounts to a bunch of INxx's on a web forum because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts and introverted Doms and more easily notice those, or it is because they truly don't exist whether for your reason or another?

Maybe it would help to consider what an ESFP dom/tert loop would look like -- SeTe. Do we ever see behavior from an ESFP who doesn't trust their Fi, so they resort to Te domination. I'd go through various extroverted types and ask "Does this ever seem to happen?" if you can't remember ever seeing it, then that does either say Dom-Tert theory is hackneyed or that it only exists with certain configurations (whereupon you'd have to determine the pattern).

Regarding this: "because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts," it also has to do with the NT desire to systematize human personality, thus making it move in predictable patterns. The motive behind this has to do with the way NTs delve into any kind of system, such as mathematics: it is an escape from unpredictable reality. (This "mathematization" of human personality is decidedly unhealthy.)

I believe that human personality is structured in such and such a way, but it is structured such that it is only more or less predictable. This predictability also depends on the person. I've also noticed that there are those who believe the structure of one's personality is permanent, when, in general, it is really more flexible than permanent, more changeable than changeless.

There is also too much made of the function/attitude combinations (Fe, Si, etc.). Jung didn't always think in terms of function/attitude combinations, he wrote about Sensing and iNtuition (etc.) in their own right. There is a more abstract level beyond function/attitude combinations that include only introversion/extraversion and the various functions in themselves. Intuition is not bound to I or E, it exists in its own right whatever its attitude.

A system is also a habit of mind that makes things easier to deal with conceptually, where "easier" is often synonymous with "lazier," which often translates into simple-minded reductionism.

I'm not going to search for evidence of tertiary theory in light of the fact that human personality is not simple or easy to reduce to formulas.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Regarding this: "because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts," it also has to do with the NT desire to systematize human personality, thus making it move in predictable patterns. The motive behind this has to do with the way NTs delve into any kind of system, such as mathematics: it is an escape from unpredictable reality. (This "mathematization" of human personality is decidedly unhealthy.)

I believe that human personality is structured in such and such a way, but it is structured such that it is only more or less predictable. This predictability also depends on the person. I've also noticed that there are those who believe the structure of one's personality is permanent, when, in general, it is really more flexible than permanent, more changeable than changeless.

There is also too much made of the function/attitude combinations (Fe, Si, etc.). Jung didn't always think in terms of function/attitude combinations, he wrote about Sensing and iNtuition (etc.) in their own right. There is a more abstract level beyond function/attitude combinations that include only introversion/extraversion and the various functions in themselves. Intuition is not bound to I or E, it exists in its own right whatever its attitude.

A system is also a habit of mind that makes things easier to deal with conceptually, where "easier" is often synonymous with "lazier," which often translates into simple-minded reductionism.

I'm not going to search for evidence of tertiary theory in light of the fact that human personality is not simple or easy to reduce to formulas.

You do realize that this entire post is essentially just your own "theory" that you are putting forth without validation? Especially the conclusion, "I am not even going to bother to test this because I don't think it should be correct."

Oh, you Ni'ers are so cute. :wubbie:
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
You do realize that this entire post is essentially just your own "theory" that you are putting forth without validation? Especially the conclusion, "I am not even going to bother to test this because I don't think it should be correct."

Oh, you Ni'ers are so cute. :wubbie:

Ni? Anyway, I expect tertiary believers to prove their own belief. Never mind that it doesn't jibe with Jung, who wrote of the auxiliary type, not as a function/attitude combination, but simply as functions without any particular attitude. This leaves the theory open to endless possibilities - it's an open-ended theory, not closed in and simple-minded reductionism. And need I remind you that Jung himself derided reductionism, whether material or spiritual in form.
 
Top