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  1. #11
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    So, have you confronted him about any of this? Maybe you need to work on your Se just as much as he needs to work on his Ne....
    It's impossible. I have tried. It's my use of Se that get's me into trouble with him. That's when we wind up in fights and he'll usually start talking down to me instead. He would prefer I were more passive and submissive. For an ISFP, I can be quite aggressive. And I call him out on his crap when he throws it at me.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  2. #12
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    Nobody wants to be a big dang boring Si user.
    Being all moderate and balanced is a good way to unlock your greatest weaknesses within!

  3. #13
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    It's impossible. I have tried. It's my use of Se that get's me into trouble with him. That's when we wind up in fights and he'll usually start talking down to me instead. He would prefer I were more passive and submissive. For an ISFP, I can be quite aggressive. And I call him out on his crap when he throws it at me.
    How does he talk down to you?

    Usually in situations like this, I've found that there are mutual misunderstandings going on. There are a few things you've said in this thread that indicate that you hold certain beliefs that, if expressed, would contribute to the conflict, not ameliorate it and reach the kind of resolution you want.

    It seems to me that you want him to be "more normal"' like you, because you pity him, and you want to get rid of that feeling of pity. I suppose that's fine, but have you ever entertained his opinions on the matter? Seems to me that if you're trying to help someone, their opinions should enter into it.

    Don't approach him as a superior he can "learn something from." I assure you, you wouldn't be the first person to do that. Approach him as an equal. If you're going to prod him to be more social, because you think it would be for his own benefit, you're probably going to need to do it differently than you've been doing it.

    Furthermore, keep in mind that NTPs and SFPs can both have the best intentions towards each other, and still not have things work out smoothly. The way they communicate is just too different.

    I think of Se as "local" and Ne as "global". Se is very good at observing the here and now. Ne kind of sucks at this, but is good at seeing as how it might relate to some larger picture.

    I wonder if what you see as "talking down" is just his attempts to find the root cause of all this.

    I would suggest framing it as a pracitical thing, rather than as a moral thing of what "people are supposed to do." He probably sees that as something like you talking down to him.

    I think NTPs have a tendency to view SFPs as fun, but they also mistrust them a little. SFPs seem to take different and contradictory positions on things in different contexts. Us NTPs, to be honest, have a tendency to view this is either false or foolish. It's probably not that simple though. It's probably, again, relating to Se being local and only interested in the immediate environment, so the SFP probably just sees it as a pragmatic adaptation to the situation, or something that was "true for that moment."

    Also, I think being upset about being "called out on his crap" is something that is pretty universal, and not unique to INTPs. I'm sure you do it, too. If you get upset when you are called out on your crap, why shouldn't he? Because it makes you uncomfortable when he does it?



    . And it's not just my opinion that thinks so. We work at the same place, and everyone there has a similar opinion about him.
    I hope you don't bring this up, because he is almost certainly not going to listen this. Why would he? "Oh, I admit that I suck, and let me start not sucking from now on, even though the things I need to not suck make me really uncomfortable?" Do you really expect him to react that way? You're basically trolling his inferior Fe, whether you intend to or not.

    Do you like being told that everyone thinks you suck, and that your suckiness is an objective fact? (or maybe it's not suckiness, but rather, being scatter-brained.)

    I don't think SFPs understand people as well as they claim they do, and it's stuff like this that makes me think so. SFPs are just good at not caring what people who "don't matter" think. This gives them confidence, which does give them an advantage in many social situations, but when it comes to interpersonal conflicts, well, let's just say that even a "robot" like me gets that people don't like being told that everyone thinks they suck.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Recently, @Jennifer asked why nobody discusses the tertiaries of ESFPs (or was it ESFJs?).

    (She'll probably get mad and say I misquoted her.)

    I'll tell you why: they don't exist to talk about.

    Tertiary theory only seems to work for intuitives, either dom or aux, because intuitives have a knack for taking on the traits of other types.

    Sensors don't do this.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Recently, Jennifer asked why nobody discusses the tertiaries of ESFPs (or was it ESFJs?).

    (She'll probably get mad and say I misquoted her.)
    I wouldn't know, I don't remember the conversation at this point.

    But for you, I'll get mad whenever you want me to! (Just say when.)

    I'll tell you why: they don't exist to talk about.

    Tertiary theory only seems to work for intuitives, either dom or aux, because intuitives have a knack for taking on the traits of other types.

    Sensors don't do this.
    Interesting. So is this an observation you've made, or is it how you theoretically think it should work, or what?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I wouldn't know, I don't remember the conversation at this point.

    But for you, I'll get mad whenever you want me to! (Just say when.)



    Interesting. So is this an observation you've made, or is it how you theoretically think it should work, or what?
    My view is not theoretical. For over a year I considered tertiary theory versus reality, and found tertiary theory wanting.

    But I also use the valid insights found in many of the posts here. For example, when a typologist says "my mother seems like both an INFJ and ISFJ at the same time, I'm so confused!", this person is making a valid observation, and is only confused because of the false theory that everybody has to be a single MBTI type.

    So when @Jennifer notices that nobody (except for the one banned douchebag I mentioned) discusses ESFJ tertiaries, I not only consider it a valid observation, I also see that it points toward the destruction of tertiary theory.

    It's up to those who believe tertiary theory to haul out the evidence to support it. Maybe the evidence is out there, but nobody is bothering to discuss it. Or it could be that the MBTI is so dominated by iNtuitive types that they tend to project their own weirdness on to the Sensor side of the aisle.

    And that "weirdness" is already known to the MBTI typologists. It involves the way that iNtuitives can seem to "change type," especially when it comes to being seen as Sensors - partly, I think, because we iNtuitives live in a Sensor world and know we are different from the majority, but also because we have a natural insight into the behavior of others that allows us to attune to, and emulate, their particular mind-sets, even until it becomes a habit, and eventually, a kind of sub-personality in its own right.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, let's cover all the bases: Is it because Dom-Tert loops just aren't discussed by what amounts to a bunch of INxx's on a web forum because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts and introverted Doms and more easily notice those, or it is because they truly don't exist whether for your reason or another?

    Maybe it would help to consider what an ESFP dom/tert loop would look like -- SeTe. Do we ever see behavior from an ESFP who doesn't trust their Fi, so they resort to Te domination. I'd go through various extroverted types and ask "Does this ever seem to happen?" if you can't remember ever seeing it, then that does either say Dom-Tert theory is hackneyed or that it only exists with certain configurations (whereupon you'd have to determine the pattern).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, let's cover all the bases: Is it because Dom-Tert loops just aren't discussed by what amounts to a bunch of INxx's on a web forum because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts and introverted Doms and more easily notice those, or it is because they truly don't exist whether for your reason or another?

    Maybe it would help to consider what an ESFP dom/tert loop would look like -- SeTe. Do we ever see behavior from an ESFP who doesn't trust their Fi, so they resort to Te domination. I'd go through various extroverted types and ask "Does this ever seem to happen?" if you can't remember ever seeing it, then that does either say Dom-Tert theory is hackneyed or that it only exists with certain configurations (whereupon you'd have to determine the pattern).
    Regarding this: "because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts," it also has to do with the NT desire to systematize human personality, thus making it move in predictable patterns. The motive behind this has to do with the way NTs delve into any kind of system, such as mathematics: it is an escape from unpredictable reality. (This "mathematization" of human personality is decidedly unhealthy.)

    I believe that human personality is structured in such and such a way, but it is structured such that it is only more or less predictable. This predictability also depends on the person. I've also noticed that there are those who believe the structure of one's personality is permanent, when, in general, it is really more flexible than permanent, more changeable than changeless.

    There is also too much made of the function/attitude combinations (Fe, Si, etc.). Jung didn't always think in terms of function/attitude combinations, he wrote about Sensing and iNtuition (etc.) in their own right. There is a more abstract level beyond function/attitude combinations that include only introversion/extraversion and the various functions in themselves. Intuition is not bound to I or E, it exists in its own right whatever its attitude.

    A system is also a habit of mind that makes things easier to deal with conceptually, where "easier" is often synonymous with "lazier," which often translates into simple-minded reductionism.

    I'm not going to search for evidence of tertiary theory in light of the fact that human personality is not simple or easy to reduce to formulas.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Regarding this: "because we're all introverts who identify with other introverts," it also has to do with the NT desire to systematize human personality, thus making it move in predictable patterns. The motive behind this has to do with the way NTs delve into any kind of system, such as mathematics: it is an escape from unpredictable reality. (This "mathematization" of human personality is decidedly unhealthy.)

    I believe that human personality is structured in such and such a way, but it is structured such that it is only more or less predictable. This predictability also depends on the person. I've also noticed that there are those who believe the structure of one's personality is permanent, when, in general, it is really more flexible than permanent, more changeable than changeless.

    There is also too much made of the function/attitude combinations (Fe, Si, etc.). Jung didn't always think in terms of function/attitude combinations, he wrote about Sensing and iNtuition (etc.) in their own right. There is a more abstract level beyond function/attitude combinations that include only introversion/extraversion and the various functions in themselves. Intuition is not bound to I or E, it exists in its own right whatever its attitude.

    A system is also a habit of mind that makes things easier to deal with conceptually, where "easier" is often synonymous with "lazier," which often translates into simple-minded reductionism.

    I'm not going to search for evidence of tertiary theory in light of the fact that human personality is not simple or easy to reduce to formulas.
    You do realize that this entire post is essentially just your own "theory" that you are putting forth without validation? Especially the conclusion, "I am not even going to bother to test this because I don't think it should be correct."

    Oh, you Ni'ers are so cute.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You do realize that this entire post is essentially just your own "theory" that you are putting forth without validation? Especially the conclusion, "I am not even going to bother to test this because I don't think it should be correct."

    Oh, you Ni'ers are so cute.
    Ni? Anyway, I expect tertiary believers to prove their own belief. Never mind that it doesn't jibe with Jung, who wrote of the auxiliary type, not as a function/attitude combination, but simply as functions without any particular attitude. This leaves the theory open to endless possibilities - it's an open-ended theory, not closed in and simple-minded reductionism. And need I remind you that Jung himself derided reductionism, whether material or spiritual in form.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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