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  1. #1
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    Default INTPs, define friendship...

    so this is my situation: i'm in an app development class, which was merged from multiply classes, which was merged from more classes. because... the dropout rate is freaking huge.
    among the survivors: there is one other ENTP, there are 3 ISTPs, one male FJ of some sort, two INTJs, and one ISTJ. everyone else? INTPs.
    i am swimming in INTP waters (working closely with 5 of them), and the social scene is, as expected... very socially awkward.

    in one scenario, one INTP complained he didn't feel he had a social life. he did so while we where all sitting in a group in the cafeteria, talking about anything, as we do all the time. the irony went over his head until i explained it.
    in another scenario a couple of days ago, an INTP chick asked me shyly if we are friends. i went with it (because why not?), but the fact of the matter is, we have never shared any information about ourselves at all - i wouldn't mind doing so - but so far we've just coded together.

    what is exactly friendship in an INTP world?

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    There are two different words for a friend in finnish, ystävä and kaveri(also used in slang 'frendi', which is basically just a slang word of kaveri, but also used about more freely, similar to what friend is used in US). ystävä refers to a friend who you have a special bond with, also the word ystävä isnt used as regularly when speaking since ystävä is also kaveri, because the word ystävä holds more value(i cant think of a better word) so its used more sparingly. for example if you say to someone that he is a great ystävä, it means much more than if you would say that he is a great kaveri, even if the person would have the same value for you and know it. its kinda like the difference between calling someone "my love" vs "honey", but without the romantic stuff . but its more complicated than that and has so many small nuances and also different sort of uses that i cant be bothered to explain it all.

    kaveri on the other hand is used more with people more freely, like 'työkaveri' which means work friend etc and is also the word used about ystävä, because it would sound bit weird to use the word ystävä all the time.

    soo.. ystävä is someone who you have a more close bond with which includes stuff like: altruism towards the person, you can easily empathize and sympathize with the person, be honest with each other, just generally understanding the person, trust, obviously enjoy each others company, not having to fear to be judged on just being yourself, when expressing feelings or when making mistakes.

    kaveri is something from someone you hang out(at work or outside of it) to what i described about ystävä.
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    Senior Member Evil Otter's Avatar
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    Ah, friendship for an INTP... well, first off it sounds like you are mistyping socially-awkward for INTP. We don't complain about our lack of a social life (it is a matter of fact and not something we regret thus not something to complain about). We also don't ask people if we are friends (we know who our friends are and to what degree). But to answer the actual question - friends are mind-mates, people with whom we can share our encyclopedias of useful, mildly-interesting, and completely useless information and have encyclopedias to share with us. In other words, more than likely our friends will be other rationals and a few cerebral idealists. This is a good reference for what I'm talking about, just skip straight to Philia: http://www.iep.utm.edu/love/

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    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    in one scenario, one INTP complained he didn't feel he had a social life. he did so while we where all sitting in a group in the cafeteria, talking about anything, as we do all the time. the irony went over his head until i explained it.
    That's normal and true for INTP's. I can be a part of a socially active group and still feel like an outsider. I do much better in 1on1 situations. In a group situation, I don't feel like being social, I just blend in and hope I have an excuse to leave without making it apparant that I want to be gone. This is also why I avoid situations of being in large groups as much as possible. Because those situations always feel like a waste of time to me.

    Also, I would never talk about not having a social life in such a manner. Although I don't have much of a social life, that's exactly how I like it to be, so whilest I can confirm it, I wouldn't whine about it. :P



    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    in another scenario a couple of days ago, an INTP chick asked me shyly if we are friends. i went with it (because why not?), but the fact of the matter is, we have never shared any information about ourselves at all - i wouldn't mind doing so - but so far we've just coded together.

    what is exactly friendship in an INTP world?
    When I was a teenager, I just sort of went with the flow. Usually the amount of the friends I had could be counted on one hand at all times, and even then there was always just one friend in particular that I was actually close too. Close enough that I really considered them a good friend. Whereas the others in the group were sort of just filler/extra.

    With a good friend, I expect to be able to intellectually banter and argue without judgement with. But that's about it. I never had any expectations or required anything from friends other than their willingness to be a friend ofcourse.

    So for INTP, friendship is an intellectual bond with probably only one other person, and other friends are just acquaintances that you are on friendly basis with. If you want to get to know an INTP, 'grilling' them in a group situation is probably not very productive. Talking to them alone, 1on1, will be the best option.
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    Having been on the receiving end of INTP friendship, I would summarize it as "sharing idea space". I've seen this range from clever humor, discussing interesting topics, sharing their intellectual area of expertise. Chit-chat and small talk at lunches wouldn't qualify, but writing code together could. I've also noticed there is not a drive to make friends, but it can be a pleasant surprise for them to find someone that shares their idea space. My $.02.
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    Everyone is my friend. Then I filter. I don't believe that pain is love or that pain is friendship. Friends are supposed to help build you up, or, at the worst, not break you down anymore. I think you're supposed to be naturally compatible, not part of some forced, fake, manufactured setup. That said, I don't go out of my way to do anything for friends. It's not a proactive setup, more the avoidance of negatives. A more passive approach. The one thing INTPs, I would argue, frequently search for is freedom and the absence of bullshit so they can go about learning or immersing themselves in what interests them, and that is what they'll likely want to bring to a friendship: a freeing lack of judgment/annoyance, and an absence of bullshit.

    I think the weakness in this arena is the absence of gift-giving, proactive displays of emotion/appreciation, etc, but there are some people (INTPs included) that don't care about these things and that don't want to be bothered with these social norms. These are the people the INTPs will gravitate towards, as their lack of these needs will be very freeing/liberating, and the INTP can then focus on what comes naturally and on doing what they love.

    Friendship is definitely mind not heart. No need for any traumatic or bonding life events, or any of that foolishness. You're default is in, and then it's yours to lose. I "feel" connected to everyone, and find something I have in common with them almost always. I don't make it a game. This is something that gets taken advantage of all the time. It's like an idiot perceives they are getting something for free, and all they strive to then do is shit on it. Fuck 'em all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky13 View Post
    Ah, friendship for an INTP... well, first off it sounds like you are mistyping socially-awkward for INTP. We don't complain about our lack of a social life (it is a matter of fact and not something we regret thus not something to complain about). We also don't ask people if we are friends (we know who our friends are and to what degree).
    That isn't necessarily true. It does cover part of the INTP spectrum, but you also have to remember how people change during the aging process and/or as they become more well-rounded. Secondary needs and desire (and the ability to articulate such) can change throughout the life process. I think core processes remain similar -- INTPs remain very independent and at least somewhat solitary -- but it doesn't mean there is no desire or longing at all for people to connect with.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Having been on the receiving end of INTP friendship, I would summarize it as "sharing idea space". I've seen this range from clever humor, discussing interesting topics, sharing their intellectual area of expertise. Chit-chat and small talk at lunches wouldn't qualify, but writing code together could. I've also noticed there is not a drive to make friends, but it can be a pleasant surprise for them to find someone that shares their idea space. My $.02.
    Yeah, "mind mate" or at least overlap where ideas are shared independently. I'm really delighted when I talk to someone and we can just build off each other's ideas and/or already have shared many of the same ideas. That is probably one of the easiest ways I feel connected to another person. I don't really enjoy combative relationships; I can learn from them, but they don't feel like friendships, and once the "debate" is over, I'm ready to go elsewhere.

    I work at building friendships in other ways but I don't tend to feel closeness that others seem to through other methods. And yes, it's possible for others to view me as part of the group, while I feel pretty alone and not connected to the group at all.
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    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    There are two different words for a friend in finnish, ystävä and kaveri(also used in slang 'frendi', which is basically just a slang word of kaveri, but also used about more freely, similar to what friend is used in US). ystävä refers to a friend who you have a special bond with, also the word ystävä isnt used as regularly when speaking since ystävä is also kaveri, because the word ystävä holds more value(i cant think of a better word) so its used more sparingly. for example if you say to someone that he is a great ystävä, it means much more than if you would say that he is a great kaveri, even if the person would have the same value for you and know it. its kinda like the difference between calling someone "my love" vs "honey", but without the romantic stuff . but its more complicated than that and has so many small nuances and also different sort of uses that i cant be bothered to explain it all.

    kaveri on the other hand is used more with people more freely, like 'työkaveri' which means work friend etc and is also the word used about ystävä, because it would sound bit weird to use the word ystävä all the time.

    soo.. ystävä is someone who you have a more close bond with which includes stuff like: altruism towards the person, you can easily empathize and sympathize with the person, be honest with each other, just generally understanding the person, trust, obviously enjoy each others company, not having to fear to be judged on just being yourself, when expressing feelings or when making mistakes.

    kaveri is something from someone you hang out(at work or outside of it) to what i described about ystävä.
    Thats interesting, I think those nuances are lacking in English. When I was a kid growing up "friend" was more someone you hung out with. Now it seems to mean something along the lines of knowing someone super well, which is sad that people do not understand such different nuances today it seems.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    so this is my situation: i'm in an app development class, which was merged from multiply classes, which was merged from more classes. because... the dropout rate is freaking huge.
    among the survivors: there is one other ENTP, there are 3 ISTPs, one male FJ of some sort, two INTJs, and one ISTJ. everyone else? INTPs.
    i am swimming in INTP waters (working closely with 5 of them), and the social scene is, as expected... very socially awkward.

    in one scenario, one INTP complained he didn't feel he had a social life. he did so while we where all sitting in a group in the cafeteria, talking about anything, as we do all the time. the irony went over his head until i explained it.
    in another scenario a couple of days ago, an INTP chick asked me shyly if we are friends. i went with it (because why not?), but the fact of the matter is, we have never shared any information about ourselves at all - i wouldn't mind doing so - but so far we've just coded together.

    what is exactly friendship in an INTP world?

    I don't know if I'm typical but friendship is a big deal for me. It denotes a pretty close relationship. Basically it's the people I hang out with and feel comfortable would want to do something with me if I called. I have to know I'm important to their life and them to mine. So for instance someone I talk to in class occasionally , not a friend. My boyfriends roommate who I see fairly often, not a friend. Even after two years of long class hours I would still refer to some of my close classmates as "this person from class" and not a friend. It's pretty defensive I think and I know it's different from how a lot of people think of it (my ESTJ ex would refer to people he met once as friends).

    Friend to my mind (though I'm trying to open up) are people I know will be there for me and who I feel comfortable enough around to not be self-conscious. Much like the girl from your class I do desire verbal confirmation. Navigating the social world is difficult and being Fe inferior it's hard for me to be clear where I stand often. Or maybe it's just that my mind likes to classify. Maybe like your lunch mate social relationships are as free form. Either friend or non-friend. No sort-of friend.

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    When people can be happy with each other and take the time to share that, then that's a good friendship to me.

    If you're a friend, you listen to the other person, then make every effort to offer returns if you can.

    You also keep your friends inside of yourself somewhere, let them inspire you and give a life force.

    We work to build bridges between each other and let the heart shine.

    It's absolutely critical that this free exchange of ideas can occer, both for advancing developments, and for the friendship itself.

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