[INTJ] Calling All INTJs: I am considering becoming INTJ

[Mal12345]

Yeah, because the Myers Briggs/Enneagram has been built on a sturdy foundation of hard statistics and empirical studies.

You don't even list a type. What are you afraid of?

 

[RaptorWizard]

Yeah, because the Myers Briggs/Enneagram has been built on a sturdy foundation of hard statistics and empirical studies.

What's so great about facts and figures if you can't even see their connections?
I'm not sure, but just because you know some numbers doesn't mean you actually understand the dynamics of the system.
People also have a history of misreading the facts, or even twisting them to serve their own subjective blunders.

 

[lunalum]

Sorry but if you're not naturally dominant Ni, it's just not gonna fly.





(See, it even rhymes and all, it must be so....)

 

[Forever_Jung]

You don't even list a type. What are you afraid of?

I am afraid of intimacy. But that's unrelated to the type listing.

It's blank (for now) because I change my mind a lot, and before today I hadn't made a post since August. Things have changed since then.

If you need something to latch on to, my best guess is that I'm INFP/ENFP...Myers-Briggs has always thrown me for a loop. I identify more with the e6 label though. :hi:

What's so great about facts and figures if you can't even see their connections?
I'm not sure, but just because you know some numbers doesn't mean you actually understand the dynamics of the system.
People also have a history of misreading the facts, or even twisting them to serve their own subjective blunders.

You misunderstand me. I was just sort of teasing Mal for asking about hard stats. I really don't give a darn about all the studies that supposedly invalidate typology.

Edit: For the record, Mal: you don't strike me as a Ni-user, but you do strike me as a 6.

 

[Zarathustra]

Do you have any hard statistics on this type's general population prevalence?

Nope.

In all likelihood, nothing even remotely close to such statistics exist.

But one can do a back-of-the-envelope estimate, based on statistics that do exist, and a few assumptions.

INTJs are somewhere around 1%-3% of the population, depending on which source you look at.

6s are ~20%-25% of the INTJ population, based on the only statistics that I believe exist (and almost all those would likely be 6w5s).

And, lastly, sx's are believed to be the least common of the three instinctual variants, with sx/so being less common than sx/sp.

I figure the ratio in society to be something like 50%-60% sp, 30%-40% so, and ~10% sx.

That would make sx/so's, at most, be ~5% of the population.

More realistically, they're probably about half, or less, the population of sx/sp's.

So something like 2-3% for sx/so's wouldn't be a horrible assumption, and likely nothing higher than 5%.

Assuming sx/so's aren't any less common amongst INTJs than other MBTI types (which may not be a good assumption), this would yield, at a low, something like .005% (1% INTJs x 20% INTJs as 6w5s x 2.5% INTJ 6w5s as sx/so's = 1/20,000), and, at a high, something like .0375% (3% INTJs x 25% INTJ as 6w5s x 5% INTJ 6w5s as sx/so's = 1/2667) of the population being INTJ 6w5 sx/so's.

The actual number probably lies within that range, and no higher than 1/1333 (shifting the last assumption all the way to 10%).

Take the average of the high and low ends of the range, and you get somewhere around 1/12000, or .0083% of the population.

 

[greenfairy]

The happiest people on Earth have made a decision, or had it made for them. There is no psychological or spiritual security in pure logic.

I wonder about this. Periodically I question whether the personified forces I act like I believe in actually exist, and whether the spirituality I have really is just meaning I attach to things to make myself feel good. I wonder if I need to have a mental back up plan so to speak; to conceive of reality in such a way as to have things all fit together and make me just as happy, without making any meaningful assumptions. Pure logic plus whatever empiricism we are capable of possessing (given that the world of form is largely an illusion and we can't really know anything).

*This is why I try to call myself an atheist and a polytheist/pantheist at the same time. It's complicated.


FWIW I think you could certainly develop your Te and Ni and mimic the INTJ lifestyle and (to some degree) thought patterns. You can cultivate judging behaviors in yourself. However, you can't "become" an INTJ. If you want a community you could also try developing your Fe.

INTP's have an interesting group dynamic, I've noticed. They tend to congregate and form clubs and cliques, Fe-style, but with their inferior Fe they continually eschew such behaviors. They make themselves and each other feel good and offer support, but there's no alliance, permanent social structure, or real connection. They just happen to interact with whoever has good ideas at the time, and that can change in an instant depending on who is nitpicking whom. They vacillate between wanting to connect and wanting to run quickly in the opposite direction. Just a thought.

 

[WhoCares]

Sorry, but you dont seem to grasp just how cool it is to be INTJ. You're just reaching for the label without truly obsesssing about how many bad guys, fictional and non-fictional have also been labelled INTJ. Without that desperate desire to stand the shadow of greatness you'll never make membership.

 

[WALMART]

Sorry, but you dont seem to grasp just how cool it is to be INTJ. You're just reaching for the label without truly obsesssing about how many bad guys, fictional and non-fictional have also been labelled INTJ. Without that desperate desire to stand the shadow of greatness you'll never make membership.

ISTP's?

 

[Nicodemus]

 

[Betty Blue]

Ultimately we are what we believe we are. You trying to convince others is still about you, self doubt maybe.... idk, you'll figure it out.

 

[Entropic]

A question to ask yourself: Are you an INTJ because this is your actually innate cognition, preferring that of Ni Te or are you an INTJ because you think you fit the Keirsey temperament profile and stereotypically seem to think and act like one/feel like one but you aren't necessarily one as in, you think like one?

There is a strong Fe logic going on in the OP with something that could seem like Pi in ego, so no, that would not put you as an INTJ.

Also, 5w4 sx/sp? Really, I always raise my eyebrow when I see people type this because people do it a lot without knowing what it means. Thinking you are smart isn't sufficient reason why.

I would, at this point consider ESFJ, ENFJ and type 1w9 for the OP (there is a rigidity that resembles that of type 1 and many 1s mistype as 5s). I lean so/sp or sp/so for instincts.

Also, Nardi's test isn't good at spotting Ne and Ni at all. I always score as some kind of Ne type on his test because his Ni items are so poorly written. If you want to look at a genuine description of the INTJ, here is one that is much more accurate:

White Intuition - Ni
ILIs operate with Ni base, making them naturally attuned to detecting hidden trends, meanings and patterns in the world around them. With intuition being introverted, the ILI is capable of reviewing long-term patterns from the past and making predictions into the present and future. This is because Ni operates similarly to Si, in that Ni needs to build models of the world by reviewing data over longer time periods. This differs to Ne base found in ILEs and IEEs who are attuned to possibilities in the present.

Introverted intuition could be best described as finding purpose and meaning beyond what can be immediately experienced that links to greater universal but fundamental truths of how the world functions. Someone with base Ni would for instance look at a clock but what they see and experience is not the clock itself but how the clock is representative of the concept of time. Further examination of the clock and the concept of time could lead to the search for greater and deeper universal truths such as how time controls the concepts of life and death and the apparent cyclical nature of the universe itself.

Ni being a perceptive function allows for information to be stored, reviewed and distilled over time into grander, universal concepts. It is this distillation process of information that allows the ILI to make predictions into the future, and it is this distillation that associates Ni with time. By time one ought to not confuse Ni with the concept of time itself either as a standard of measurement or how we understand change and movement in the physical world, but by how Ni detects and connects to universal patterns in the sense-world. It is therefore more accurate to say that Ni is timeless -- it exists outside the detected space-time continuum. It is thus this ethereal existence that allows the Ni base type to connect to time, and one can argue that Ni is capable of seeing through time itself due to its ability to detect universal concepts and patterns that are true regardless of context specifics. An example of such pattern is that one must first be born in order to be considered a living being.

It is not always easy or possible for the Ni base type to express his or her conceptual understandings of the world due to Ni’s introverted nature. There are several reasons for this. Firstly, introverts have a greater difficulty in general to communicate with the external world due to the how their information metabolism operates. Communication with the external world relies on the acceptance of general principles. These general principles are different to the universal concepts Ni is attuned to, and expression of the universal requires the ILI to find matching external general and logical principles in order to convey the Ni visions properly.

Secondly, being of the IP temperament, the ILI tends to prefer observation over judgement. This is due to the nature of irrationality itself leading the ILI to mostly being attuned to perception data. Sorting through this data requires the active use of a judgement function, making it sometimes seem as if the ILI has troubles coming to conclusions or making decisions. Because Ni operates on detecting patterns over longer time-periods, it is possible for the ILI to find it difficult to sometimes come to definitive conclusions about the state of the world. The ILI may experience a sense of uncertainty in trusting his or her own judgements, feeling that unless a definite pattern has been formed, it is very difficult if nigh impossible to tell the true outcome of things. This could to the outsider look like unnecessary passive observation and as if the ILI does not fully know what it is he or she wants or desires and an extroverted judgement type might even experience the ILI as aimless or without a definite goal. To the eyes of the outsider, it is thus easy to mistake the ILI as a recluse who tends to drift through the world without any apparent purpose or larger life goal, predominantly defined by his or her inertia and inability to create action in the present moment even though the ILI deep down seeks a way to engage with the world in an active, rather than passive, manner.

However, to the ILI, such goals and purposes are impossible to attain without first feeling that he or she fully knows and understands what is to come due to the ILI always being guided by his or her Ni visions. Instead, decisions of importance tend to coalesce over time, resulting in a drive or move that is experienced as inevitable. As such the true nature of the irrational temperament can be observed as outsiders might wonder why the sudden movement or need for action that seems to come out of nowhere, being unaware that this spur of action has in fact been a long on-going, internal process for the ILI.

Thirdly, leading with introverted intuition means complete psychological rejection of the sense-world. All energy is focused inward, constantly distilling whatever vision the Ni base type happened to be interested in at any given moment. Intuition, working by detecting archetypal hidden meanings, is naturally difficult to explain or convey because it does not work with what is tangible, concrete and can be directly observed or experienced. This might lead to the impression that ILIs predominantly “live in their own heads” in that not only do they seem to lack interest in the world around them, but the esoteric nature of intuition might be entirely lost upon those who lack this natural ability to connect and detect hidden meanings and patterns in the sense-world. The end result might be that the Ni base type is experienced as unrealistic, unpragmatic or simply not seen as making much sense in conversation. It is therefore easy to see why the Ni base type requires the use of an extroverted judging function to be able to fully express and realize their visions in the present world.

Black Logic - Te
The creative function of the ILI is Te, making the ILI attuned to external logical systems and facts. The ILI utilizes Te to shape his or her internal models generated by Ni, providing it with much needed structure and stability. Information is primarily sought through the use of Te, making Te the information-gathering function for the ILI. The factual nature of Te will help to ground Ni to observeable reality. As such, Te serves as the ILI’s contact function and the ILI will primarily choose to engage the world through the lens of Te by actively seeking and gathering data, primarily by referencing to existing logical structures and systems and facts. Examples of such models as used in everyday life are for instance the various metric systems that surround us. In this sense the ILI is not much different to those with base Te, except that with Te being located in the creative position, this use is not always as consistent and the ILI emphasizes less of a need to refer to these systems when explaining their models about how the world oeprates.

Te, being an extroverted information element, emphasizes efficiency and accuracy over internal logical consistency. A typical example of Ni operating with Te would be to consider what is the most effective plan in order to solve a problem. Consider for instance that the ILI is told to find the cheapest but most efficient computer on the market. The ILI would immediately solve the problem with Ni and Te -- what is the purpose of the computer? What function(s) is it supposed to serve? Perhaps the purpose of the computer is to be able to generate complex calculations. The ILI would then seek out information with Te -- what kind of hardware and software is best suited for a computer meant to generate complex calculations? After extensive research the ILI would finally have all the answers he or she needs in order to buy such a computer. It is important to note that this should not be confused with the nature of Se that helps to realize goals in the present, through action and the manipulation of physical objects in real-time. The action of buying the computer would be the results of Se, whereas the realization of what software and hardware is required for the computer to run smoothly and be the most cost-efficient is the logical conclusions of Te.

With Te being oriented towards the objective world, one can thus say that the ILI is more inclined towards what could be referred to as realistic pragmatism. Realistic pragmatism can be understood as the need for practical application and seeking logical and realizable logical results. Every action needs to have its logical purpose and effect. One does not go buy food for the pleasure of enjoying food, but one buys food to achieve the logical result of restocking food because we cannot live without food.

 

[Kalach]

Mal, if you pledge this their sorority, you'll only have yourself to blame.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I wonder about this. Periodically I question whether the personified forces I act like I believe in actually exist, and whether the spirituality I have really is just meaning I attach to things to make myself feel good. I wonder if I need to have a mental back up plan so to speak; to conceive of reality in such a way as to have things all fit together and make me just as happy, without making any meaningful assumptions. Pure logic plus whatever empiricism we are capable of possessing (given that the world of form is largely an illusion and we can't really know anything).

It's good I think if people, like yourself, can realize the limits each of our own opinions may hold. Your opinions may indeed be largely distorted by your own lenses, but if you can actually identify that, you're going to be mush wiser than someone who can't see and refuses to/doesn't realize for their own selves their lack of vision.

And that's exactly why I'm always questioning myself and gathering lots of external information to 'check my ideas against the context'. This could be as simple as 'facts and figures' (and you can always wonder if they even got the stats right), a collection of 'different ideas or opinions', or even building an integral model of reality from the very pieces that constitute it (like destroying the world [the system] or whatever to forge it anew).

 

[Amargith]

I love how NTs are like required to apply for a specific NT membership, even when they already have their T-card

 

[Jonny]

Congratulations.

 

[Mal12345]

Sorry but if you're not naturally dominant Ni, it's just not gonna fly.

(See, it even rhymes and all, it must be so....)

What does "naturally dominant" mean?

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=16405]Kamishi[/MENTION]: What is it you mean when you talk about having one's ego oriented toward a specific function? Does that mean your ego is sensitive to these sorts of issues? Does it mean your sense of self is composed around these mental processes?

 

[baccheion]

Dude, WTF? I would never want to be an INTJ. The only thing I want that they (seem to) have is the lack of procrastination.

 

[Entropic]

[MENTION=16405]Kamishi[/MENTION]: What is it you mean when you talk about having one's ego oriented toward a specific function? Does that mean your ego is sensitive to these sorts of issues? Does it mean your sense of self is composed around these mental processes?

Not quite. The ego isn't just your sense of self, but it is your awareness of self, that which you know as self and primarily experiences as self. When the ego is oriented towards a certain function, it just means that function is the dominant. An Ni dominant is ego-oriented towards Ni, because it is Ni that informs the ego and how the ego understands the world. It is not so much the function itself as it is the perspective the function offers that becomes a part of our sense of self, because it structures the ego a certain way.

 

[Entropic]

Dude, WTF? I would never want to be an INTJ. The only thing I want that they (seem to) have is the lack of procrastination.

INTJs actually procrastinate a lot, although there are various reasons unrelated to Ni dominance as to why a person is a procrastinator.