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  1. #81
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    And please tell me, where does Jung once indicate that the unconsciouss is in possession of its own ego in this quote? This sentence is extremely taken out of context since "egoism" actually means that, egoism, which is very different to the word "egoic". I question your reading comprehension abilities.
    Egoism without an ego? Interesting.

    "Egoic" lol.
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    You are a type 5 though.
    Yes, and that's part of the point. I'm also an Fi type, so I don't have a sense of shared collective experience like Fe types do.

    N's are more oriented towards ideas for their own sake, whereas sensors see them as more a means to an end.
    No. This is a bad steroetype of intuition and sensation in my opinion, that's built on Keirsey's definitions but has little to do with actual intuition. Any person can be idea-oriented. What does it mean to be idea-oriented anyway?

    I've heard sensors when working on project tend to gather data and details and then put them together into an overall picture, and people using cognitive intuition will first get an idea and then work on the details.
    By that definition I'm a sensor. It doesn't work that way. It's about how you understand the world, not how you operate in the world. They are not necessarily the same things. Two people can operate the same but understand the process differently.

    I don't know how accurate that is, since most people start off with some idea;
    So now you contradicted yourself.

    but I hardly ever do it the sensing way.
    How does one separate between a sensing idea and intuitive idea?

    I find the details of an idea's realization boring.
    So you don't like Se with thinking.

    Aesthetic details I am happy to plan, but practical details like logistics aren't something I'm good at.
    So you favor Si and are weak at Te when combined with Se in particular.
    I have thought about what you said and seriously considered it, but I don't think I fit inferior Ne and I don't seem that much like the ISFJ's I've encountered. Granted I don't know many; but we have some striking differences.
    Such as? How do you know they are actually properly typed ISFJs cognitively? And how would you describe inferior Ne?

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Irrelevant information. Forum stats are only as valid as people self-typings are and when it comes to both systems, especially together, I'd say it's close to nil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Egoism without an ego? Interesting.

    "Egoic" lol.
    Yeah, let's interpret things more literally.

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  3. #83
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Irrelevant information. Forum stats are only as valid as people self-typings are and when it comes to both systems, especially together, I'd say it's close to nil.
    It's less irrelevant than your comment. At least I provided data - two sets of data from different places. Show me something better instead of taking your cheap potshots. I suppose we could rely on your analysis. Then again, you were just trying to figure out your own type a few months ago.

    Why not just throw out the whole system because testing methods are unreliable and since it's unreliable, then it's a waste of time.

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  4. #84
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    No. This is a bad steroetype of intuition and sensation in my opinion, that's built on Keirsey's definitions but has little to do with actual intuition. Any person can be idea-oriented. What does it mean to be idea-oriented anyway?
    I don't think so, I think you can make generalizations. You're right, anyone can be "idea oriented" in a way- but there are subtle differences as to the types of ideas, whether or not the person is interested in the realization of them, how they understand them, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    So now you contradicted yourself.
    No I'm just acknowledging that the specific thing I heard may not be right. First I described what it was. I think it has a grain of truth in it, in that you can make generalizations and intuitors are more interested in theorizing and abstract thought for its own sake, but that's kind of vague and open ended- what I heard might not be correct in the way it was stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    How does one separate between a sensing idea and intuitive idea?
    It's not that simple, and as I have said I'm not so good with the subtleties, so I couldn't tell you. It's about patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    So you don't like Se with thinking.

    So you favor Si and are weak at Te when combined with Se in particular.
    For these reasons and others I believe I have the functions of XNTP and XSFJ- but I think I am more like an NTP than an SFJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Such as? How do you know they are actually properly typed ISFJs cognitively? And how would you describe inferior Ne?
    I couldn't go into all the ways I don't fit here- it would be too long of a post, and I don't think anyone wants to read it. I only know my mom is correctly typed- the other one may be INFJ. I have a book about the inferior functions, so I know a fair amount about them. I know if people, including myself, fit or not.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I don't think so, I think you can make generalizations. You're right, anyone can be "idea oriented" in a way- but there are subtle differences as to the types of ideas, whether or not the person is interested in the realization of them, how they understand them, etc.
    Care to give any examples?

    No I'm just acknowledging that the specific thing I heard may not be right. First I described what it was. I think it has a grain of truth in it, in that you can make generalizations and intuitors are more interested in theorizing and abstract thought for its own sake, but that's kind of vague and open ended- what I heard might not be correct in the way it was stated.
    Correction: Ne and Fe types can be. Ni types not necessarily, even less so if paired with Te. For me theorizing must have a purpose or a reason, otherwise it is a pointless act.

    It's not that simple, and as I have said I'm not so good with the subtleties, so I couldn't tell you. It's about patterns.
    Such as? You have to realize that it's the kinds of patterns that matter. Si types are also good at noticing patterns, but those patterns are Si patterns and ultimately relate to the physical world in some sense. The problem here is that many Si types don't realize Si is actually sensation because it is actually abstract since it's introverted. Same thing applies to many Fe types who think that their ability to read tone, intent and so on in people's emotions is a form of intuition and in a general sense it is. It is just not Jungian intuition. That's the distinction I'm making here.

    For these reasons and others I believe I have the functions of XNTP and XSFJ- but I think I am more like an NTP than an SFJ.
    Yes, you keep saying so, but cognitively I do think you operate more like an xSFJ than an xNTP. More focus on Fe and Si than Ne and Ti.

    I couldn't go into all the ways I don't fit here- it would be too long of a post, and I don't think anyone wants to read it. I only know my mom is correctly typed- the other one may be INFJ. I have a book about the inferior functions, so I know a fair amount about them. I know if people, including myself, fit or not.
    Reading a book is not the same thing as actually being able to understand the book and identify it in other people. Naomi Quenk's book is for example incredibly vague at its places and I can see how some of her descriptions could apply to more than one inferior. I might even posit ESFJ because there is a certain point from you where you simply naturally shy away from and even seem to refuse to actually make logical categorizations. Why is that if you're an INTP? They live in the world of categorization being Ti-dominants, to the point they often appear as overly nitpicky.

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  6. #86
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Care to give any examples?
    I've given examples which you've rejected as being too vague. I'm a big picture thinker, so I don't really have specific examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Correction: Ne and Fe types can be. Ni types not necessarily, even less so if paired with Te. For me theorizing must have a purpose or a reason, otherwise it is a pointless act.
    I've known some Ni types who are as well, but on the whole it is more associated with Ne.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Such as? You have to realize that it's the kinds of patterns that matter. Si types are also good at noticing patterns, but those patterns are Si patterns and ultimately relate to the physical world in some sense. The problem here is that many Si types don't realize Si is actually sensation because it is actually abstract since it's introverted. Same thing applies to many Fe types who think that their ability to read tone, intent and so on in people's emotions is a form of intuition and in a general sense it is. It is just not Jungian intuition. That's the distinction I'm making here.
    Good point. I'm pretty sure the patterns I notice are sufficiently N as to be N aux/dom; but my S functions help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Yes, you keep saying so, but cognitively I do think you operate more like an xSFJ than an xNTP. More focus on Fe and Si than Ne and Ti.
    You might be right. I can't prove it to you either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Reading a book is not the same thing as actually being able to understand the book and identify it in other people. Naomi Quenk's book is for example incredibly vague at its places and I can see how some of her descriptions could apply to more than one inferior. I might even posit ESFJ because there is a certain point from you where you simply naturally shy away from and even seem to refuse to actually make logical categorizations. Why is that if you're an INTP? They live in the world of categorization being Ti-dominants, to the point they often appear as overly nitpicky.
    I've learned that being overly nitpicky is detrimental to your social life, so I try to avoid it. But I do notice things which I keep to myself.

    I can't prove to you I am or am not a certain type, or that I understand a book. You're right it can be difficult to apply the concepts to people, but I do my best and I think I do it adequately. I think you do as well, and we simply have different opinions.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I've given examples which you've rejected as being too vague. I'm a big picture thinker, so I don't really have specific examples.
    How is being vague the same as being a big picture thinker, though? When I think of an NT, I think of someone who is capable of drawing intuitive connections between objects and events and logically connect these ideas. If anything every time I have a discussion with you about functions, you are extremely resistant to even make any kind of general classifications of what is and what isn't.

    My point being that one can be a big picture thinker and still be very definitive one's thinking. I get the impression here that what you really think is sensation is actually thinking, in that thinking too can make objects seem concrete in that thinking always impersonally defines what is and what isn't and it is really thinking as a cognitive act that you shy away from, not sensation.

    I've known some Ni types who are as well, but on the whole it is more associated with Ne.
    What is associated with Ne?

    Good point. I'm pretty sure the patterns I notice are sufficiently N as to be N aux/dom; but my S functions help.
    Care to give any examples of these patterns?
    I've learned that being overly nitpicky is detrimental to your social life, so I try to avoid it. But I do notice things which I keep to myself.
    Nitpicky in what sense?

    I can't prove to you I am or am not a certain type, or that I understand a book. You're right it can be difficult to apply the concepts to people, but I do my best and I think I do it adequately. I think you do as well, and we simply have different opinions.
    You can't prove it with physical evidence no, but you can prove it to me by showing that you do in your actual reasoning processes when conversing with me. This isn't just a differences of opinions but also a difference in cognition.

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  8. #88
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    How is being vague the same as being a big picture thinker, though? When I think of an NT, I think of someone who is capable of drawing intuitive connections between objects and events and logically connect these ideas. If anything every time I have a discussion with you about functions, you are extremely resistant to even make any kind of general classifications of what is and what isn't.
    What you think is vague is me being a big picture thinker. They're not the same in all cases, but in some cases they overlap. When I think of an NT I think of all kinds of things, and I've seen all kinds of NT's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    My point being that one can be a big picture thinker and still be very definitive one's thinking. I get the impression here that what you really think is sensation is actually thinking, in that thinking too can make objects seem concrete in that thinking always impersonally defines what is and what isn't and it is really thinking as a cognitive act that you shy away from, not sensation.
    Maybe. Some people agree with you and others don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    What is associated with Ne?
    What you mentioned in your previous post to which I was replying. Both Ne and Ni are more oriented towards ideas for their own sake than a means to an end; sensors generally want the ideas to be useful and applicable to the concrete world. They enjoy them, but speculation is not their primary focus. S functions are associated with concrete and physical reality and N functions are associated with abstract and metaphysical reality. This is an example you are asking for. It's a pattern, a trend, not an absolute. Individuals and subtleties of expression will vary. Ni dom/aux will prefer to have a purpose and a focus, if only to come to a conclusion; whereas Ne is usually content to throw out possibilities without any focus or direction. Both will not feel it necessary to tie their speculations to the physical world; the ideas are entertaining in themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Nitpicky in what sense?
    In the sense you meant it in the post to which I am replying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    You can't prove it with physical evidence no, but you can prove it to me by showing that you do in your actual reasoning processes when conversing with me. This isn't just a differences of opinions but also a difference in cognition.
    I doubt I could prove anything to you, and I'm not interested in trying. But if you genuinely want to figure me out, I'll respond to questions and pick apart your reasoning process.

  9. #89
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    @greenfairy I like the idea I have in my head that I see a little bit of myself reflected in your manifestations.

    We each have had people argue our types for incredible periods of time on this forum (with a common history of self-typing as INTP).
    We like contemplating the great mysteries and exploring the many amazing horizons of reality.
    We take apart other people's ideas and imagine what kinds of constitutions the pieces could create.
    We are both very unique people with a flair for fantasy that others are often intrigued and even greatly amused by (like me being a 'wizard' , and you being a 'fairy' ).

    So am I right or what!?

  10. #90
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Indeed.

    Well hey, without us the forum would be slightly less interesting/exciting.

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