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  1. #91
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    What you mentioned in your previous post to which I was replying. Both Ne and Ni are more oriented towards ideas for their own sake than a means to an end; sensors generally want the ideas to be useful and applicable to the concrete world. They enjoy them, but speculation is not their primary focus. S functions are associated with concrete and physical reality and N functions are associated with abstract and metaphysical reality. This is an example you are asking for. It's a pattern, a trend, not an absolute. Individuals and subtleties of expression will vary. Ni dom/aux will prefer to have a purpose and a focus, if only to come to a conclusion; whereas Ne is usually content to throw out possibilities without any focus or direction. Both will not feel it necessary to tie their speculations to the physical world; the ideas are entertaining in themselves.
    The highlighted is an oversimplification. This is where the influence of other functions comes into play. INTJs, for instance, are typically strongly oriented toward implementing their ideas in the real world. INTPs, by contrast, are more likely to be content with developing the idea itself. Similarly, I would expect SFPs to enjoy the physical process of whatever they are doing more than the actual outcome, while SFJs are more focused on outcome. All this is an oversimplification, too, but points to something other than N vs. S differences in the comparison you are trying to make. I would attribute it more to J vs. P, or Je vs. Ji (which amounts to the same thing).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #92
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is an oversimplification. This is where the influence of other functions comes into play. INTJs, for instance, are typically strongly oriented toward implementing their ideas in the real world. INTPs, by contrast, are more likely to be content with developing the idea itself. Similarly, I would expect SFPs to enjoy the physical process of whatever they are doing more than the actual outcome, while SFJs are more focused on outcome. All this is an oversimplification, too, but points to something other than N vs. S differences in the comparison you are trying to make. I would attribute it more to J vs. P, or Je vs. Ji (which amounts to the same thing).
    I am in favor of oversimplifications. If they didn't exist I wouldn't understand anything.

  3. #93
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I am in favor of oversimplifications. If they didn't exist I wouldn't understand anything.
    I prefer simplifying assumptions, which can sometimes be removed later once an approximate understanding is reached. That is the point of the "over" in "oversimplify"; it goes too far, and detracts from understanding rathr than enhancing it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #94
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I prefer simplifying assumptions, which can sometimes be removed later once an approximate understanding is reached. That is the point of the "over" in "oversimplify"; it goes too far, and detracts from understanding rathr than enhancing it.
    True, but I don't know how to communicate the trends and patterns I observe other than to simplify things. Any sort of pattern is a simplification, and the broader it is, the more it is oversimplified and generalized. As an Ni dominant and big picture thinker, how to you talk about the things you observe without people picking it apart as such? Further more, I focus so much on the larger picture of things I don't really become aware of the details because I don't consider them important. Then to have my ideas dismissed because they are oversimplified, which I think are sometimes very important, is frustrating.

  5. #95
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    True, but I don't know how to communicate the trends and patterns I observe other than to simplify things. Any sort of pattern is a simplification, and the broader it is, the more it is oversimplified and generalized. As an Ni dominant and big picture thinker, how to you talk about the things you observe without people picking it apart as such? Further more, I focus so much on the larger picture of things I don't really become aware of the details because I don't consider them important. Then to have my ideas dismissed because they are oversimplified, which I think are sometimes very important, is frustrating.
    Generally I pick it apart first. This is a primary job of Te. Then it is better packaged for public consumption. I share more raw Ni ideas rather sparingly, with people I know have the patience for a much more impressionistic presentation style. As with mathematical modelling, there is always a balance between simplification and accuracy. The key is to find where that is, so the model is workable while still being useful. My observation about INTJs wanting to implement ideas (vs. INTPs who are less motivated by this) is an obvious piece of data that is inconsistent with your model. As I operate, then, the model has to go, or at least be modified (remove one assumption or add one more level of detail) to account for it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #96
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As with mathematical modelling, there is always a balance between simplification and accuracy. The key is to find where that is, so the model is workable while still being useful.
    Oh, good point! I can understand that because I took a statistics class. I usually think I qualify my statements enough, like saying "individual expression will vary," but maybe I need to say something more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My observation about INTJs wanting to implement ideas (vs. INTPs who are less motivated by this) is an obvious piece of data that is inconsistent with your model. As I operate, then, the model has to go, or at least be modified (remove one assumption or add one more level of detail) to account for it.
    See, this is what I mean by "individual expression will vary." A trend does not mean one counterexample invalidates it. I think you mean all INTJ's are interested in implementing their ideas (which would be a trend apparently counter to the one I observed), but being so there are more subtleties. The one I knew was perfectly happy to discuss philosophy. This was what I meant by ideas for their own sake; philosophy does not directly apply to the real world unless we are talking about applied ethics. He and I would talk about the composition of the universe, whether fire was alive, what it meant to have consciousness, etc. Sensors would be less interested in these sorts of ideas because they are not practical. So INTJ's wanting to implement ideas does not relate to what I said in the way I meant it.

  7. #97
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    See, this is what I mean by "individual expression will vary." A trend does not mean one counterexample invalidates it. I think you mean all INTJ's are interested in implementing their ideas (which would be a trend apparently counter to the one I observed), but being so there are more subtleties. The one I knew was perfectly happy to discuss philosophy. This was what I meant by ideas for their own sake; philosophy does not directly apply to the real world unless we are talking about applied ethics. He and I would talk about the composition of the universe, whether fire was alive, what it meant to have consciousness, etc. Sensors would be less interested in these sorts of ideas because they are not practical. So INTJ's wanting to implement ideas does not relate to what I said in the way I meant it.
    A trend without exceptions is an absolute. I meant what I said, that the INTJs I know are far more interested in real-world implementation of their ideas than are the INTPs, and I know many people of each type. This is where we compare data, to broaden our sample set. I bet we still will see this trend, though with exceptions and variations. Part of that includes the observation that most NTJs I know enjoy discussing the open-ended subjects you describe, as a way to get "mental exercise" and enjoy time with friends. Many INTPs I know will also construct practical things, plan and take trips, etc. In the big picture, however, the two types do not value practical implementation the same way.

    I am not pursuing this point to establish that I am right, but instead to illustrate how I form, interpret, and use this kind of type generalization.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #98
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    A trend without exceptions is an absolute. I meant what I said, that the INTJs I know are far more interested in real-world implementation of their ideas than are the INTPs, and I know many people of each type. This is where we compare data, to broaden our sample set. I bet we still will see this trend, though with exceptions and variations. Part of that includes the observation that most NTJs I know enjoy discussing the open-ended subjects you describe, as a way to get "mental exercise" and enjoy time with friends. Many INTPs I know will also construct practical things, plan and take trips, etc. In the big picture, however, the two types do not value practical implementation the same way.

    I am not pursuing this point to establish that I am right, but instead to illustrate how I form, interpret, and use this kind of type generalization.
    I agree with that. It's pretty much what I said though. I don't see how what I said was oversimplified.

  9. #99
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I agree with that. It's pretty much what I said though. I don't see how what I said was oversimplified.
    This began with your statement that "both Ne and Ni are more oriented towards ideas for their own sake than a means to an end". I disagree, and if we are generalizing on the level of functions, find that Ne is more oriented toward ideas for their own sake, and Ni with ideas as a means to an end, influenced largely by the highest judging function each type has. Same goes for Se and Si, though with sensory perceptions rather than ideas. In short, you find the two functions similar in the stated respect, while I find them almost opposite.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #100
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This began with your statement that "both Ne and Ni are more oriented towards ideas for their own sake than a means to an end". I disagree, and if we are generalizing on the level of functions, find that Ne is more oriented toward ideas for their own sake, and Ni with ideas as a means to an end, influenced largely by the highest judging function each type has. Same goes for Se and Si, though with sensory perceptions rather than ideas. In short, you find the two functions similar in the stated respect, while I find them almost opposite.
    I do find them similar in that they are more that way than the sensing functions, because the division of N and S has to do with this distinction. But compared with each other they are quite different.

    I hadn't noticed the sensing functions possessing this polarity- how would you describe it?

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