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  1. #11
    Junior Member ummm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    This is more common among INTPs than ENTPs. There is nothing in MBTI to suggest so but the socionics functional model sheds some light on what is happening here. In INTPs the inferior Fe function is a contact one which means that INTPs prefer to deal with the emotional stuff themselves, rather than have somebody explicitly point out their emotions for them. For IxFJs Fe is also contact function, and when two contact functions meet it results in a kind of overheating of the same parameter. If you haven't studied socionics model A then none of this would make any sense, of course, it was only after careful study of the subject that it became clear to me why IxFJs and IxTPs cause emotional overheating in each other.

    In case of ENTPs here the situation is different. ENTPs are in mirage relations with INFJs. One of the qualities of mirage relations is that partners cannot take each other very seriously and will sometimes invade each other's space and interests. Some INFJs have commented in NF forum feeling too overly criticized by ENTP's Ti. It goes both ways.

    Yeah, l don't know. l don't get this pairing. Weirdly (or maybe not?) l don't have a clash with ENFPs. l don't find the Fi to be an energy vampire and l don't find it to be too irrational either, in the aux position.

    At first l thought, maybe l just wasn't using Fe the way an ENTP should be but that model explains me perfectly.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    If you haven't studied socionics model A ...
    Where can I read more in depth (than the usual socionics sites and wikisocio...) about MODEL A only?
    Preferably stuff by Augusta or approved by her.

  3. #13
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I'm INFJ and even I sometimes feel invaded by Fe by people who are more Fe than I am. Just saying.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ummm View Post
    So l talk with a few INFJ's and am fully aware of how great the pairing is supposed to be.

    l think the reaction to Fe will vary greatly, personally. l like an INFJ as a casual friend but find l am VERY quickly drained by the Fe.
    I think you identify a number of possible pitfalls in this as an intimate pairing, and it makes sense to keep the INFJ at arms length whenever those are the feelings.

    Depending on experience and other factors, some INTPs don't want to process as much emotion and subjectivity as INFJs do, even in detached conversation as a topic. In past relationships I approached this by taking my INTP partner at his word and letting him know that I would limit it to that. After enough time and empathy, some INFJs can adapt to the actuality of their INTP partner rather than blending projection or other expectation into the mix, or even deeper aspects of the INTP that are not welcomed to explore.

    When either partner adapts too much it can end up draining to both people. Strangely enough, even if there is no fighting, no conflict, but just too much adapting required, the dynamic can play out subconsciously as conflict that is impossible to describe because it isn't even what most people call passive-aggression. My first relationship of 15 years ended in this manner. I felt it was 100% successful as a friendship, but the more intimate pairing drained both people too much. When two people can't just relax and be their authentic selves, then the pairing simply doesn't work and there is no "fixing it". It's very much like trying to change how tall you are. Friendships can connect the pieces you have in common, but intimate pairing where you co-habitate require more overlap because there is no recovering from being with the person.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    Where can I read more in depth (than the usual socionics sites and wikisocio...) about MODEL A only?
    Preferably stuff by Augusta or approved by her.
    Socionics.us is a good source, these are Augusta's descriptions of information elements translated from Russian:
    http://www.socionics.us/works/socion2.shtml#1

    Not sure where she wrote about Model A itself, but these have been translated from Russian pages:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-of-the-Psyche
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/6

  6. #16
    Member totent's Avatar
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    I don't think its the expression of emotions that find me out of my comfort zone as much as the desire of the other person to get to "figure me out". There are always complaints about how I am "mysterious" from such people and it is when they try to get into my head and tell me that I ought to be feeling something at a certain time that I feel "choked". Even so, I am told that I can be very helpful in making people feel better and that I can figure things out for them quite accurately..

  7. #17
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    What's funny is that I've felt similar things about some ENTPs, actually. They have a very "prove me wrong!" manner of approaching topics they're analyzing. It can become quite invasive when the topic is your feelings, trying to understand/get close to you. It feels more like dissection/pushing me into a corner. But then, I'm a bit more emotionally walled off than some NF's, so maybe that in of itself makes some people more inquisitive, or somesuch. It feels like boundaries are stepped upon when they make guesses about how they think I feel/process things, & assert these things as fact- at least in terms of their approach, semantically. It can be draining.
    On reflection, in thinking about what you describe as this manner of interaction where the ENTP makes you feel pushed into a corner...maybe it's that ENTPs are particularly clumsy when it comes to establishing intimacy. Once they become interested, they sort of heedlessly stampede all over the object of their interest... lasering with the full blast of jangly "too much at once" energy. Rushing in their typical fashion they can be abrupt, insensitive, and rough... mainly because I suspect they feel uncomfortable. Ironically, I think ENTPs act more aggressive when they feel uncomfortable...particularly when they want someone to like them... not when they're in sales mode, but when they REALLY want someone to like them. Since that need renders them vulnerable they can become really sloppy and intrusive.

    TLDR; ENTPs can be awful at taking time with anything, especially getting to know someone they like / being close.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #18
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    When either partner adapts too much it can end up draining to both people. Strangely enough, even if there is no fighting, no conflict, but just too much adapting required, the dynamic can play out subconsciously as conflict that is impossible to describe because it isn't even what most people call passive-aggression. My first relationship of 15 years ended in this manner. I felt it was 100% successful as a friendship, but the more intimate pairing drained both people too much. When two people can't just relax and be their authentic selves, then the pairing simply doesn't work and there is no "fixing it". It's very much like trying to change how tall you are. Friendships can connect the pieces you have in common, but intimate pairing where you co-habitate require more overlap because there is no recovering from being with the person.
    If you have to adapt to get what you need from the other person, it's probably not a good fit, because you can never keep it up.

    Many relationships begin like this: you present the best version of yourself while slowing getting comfortable being yourself. If during this process, you cannot become comfortable, it won't work.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #19
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    which goes back to the whole OP dynamic of feeling like NFJs are deciding what you feel prior to you knowing what you feel. the irony is that this to some extent is how long-standing NFJ/NTP couples end up prospering: the NTP simply empowers the NFJ to decide what they feel for them so that they don't have to explore the more repressed sides of themselves in the first place.
    xNFJ types do seem to have this amazing sense of certainty when it comes to identifying another person's feelings. They will tell you in great confidence exactly how you are, despite your arguments to the contrary. They often have great sounding reasons for why they know better than you do. Often they are right, but somehow this makes them neither more tolerant nor more circumspect / respectful of judgment boundaries. They seem to need to form a conclusion about what you feel, especially if it impacts them, which can make their judgments intolerable, given this self-serving dimension.

    I find it helpful to simply call them on it with a hearty "back off and let me decide what I feel".
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #20
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    On reflection, in thinking about what you describe as this manner of interaction where the ENTP makes you feel pushed into a corner...maybe it's that ENTPs are particularly clumsy when it comes to establishing intimacy. Once they become interested, they sort of heedlessly stampede all over the object of their interest... lasering with the full blast of jangly "too much at once" energy. Rushing in their typical fashion they can be abrupt, insensitive, and rough... mainly because I suspect they feel uncomfortable. Ironically, I think ENTPs act more aggressive when they feel uncomfortable...particularly when they want someone to like them... not when they're in sales mode, but when they REALLY want someone to like them. Since that need renders them vulnerable they can become really sloppy and intrusive.

    TLDR; ENTPs can be awful at taking time with anything, especially getting to know someone they like / being close.
    It isn’t necessarily the tenacity per se, imo. Where that high energy is applied to some argument but still contained within certain boundaries (e.g. not trying to control or influence someone else’s feelings or experience) it can be enthralling.

    I dated an ENTP for many years- I always said he could talk circles around me so fast that he could be wrong, be asleep and still ‘win’ arguments. It’s easy enough to shrug off and feel absolutely no ill will when the topic being argued has no bearing on the relationship. It was actually fun when there was no personal investment and I could just sit back in awe. Because once that motor is warmed up there’s no stopping it. But holy hell- when the topic was ‘why something should be done my way’ or ‘why you should feel a certain way about something’ then it’s just suffocating and invasive. It’s about boundaries and entitlement.

    And I guess that goes for Fe in FJs as well, really- that it’s about clumsiness with boundaries and entitlement. That clumsiness can reveal how entitled an individual feels to direct others’ feelings or experience. But it can actually be fun to go up against a trained ninja (and get pummeled with Ne) with nothing more than a little plastic cocktail sword- so long as it’s about exploring each other’s experience instead of trying to control it, there can be a lot to learn from it. That distinction is largely intuitive I think (not in an mbti way, but in a more traditional sense of the word).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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