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  1. #11
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalMethod View Post
    Sorry, SquirrelTao, you came here looking for some insight into INTJs, and you presented a system for them to give you the insight, but in the end I think we just over analyzed the system and made you even more confused. Or at least, I think I did.
    No, all I want is honesty. Your response was interesting. Could it have something to do with your age? I could relate to the last step more than some of the bottom steps, too, when I was still living with my parents. Or, more interestingly, maybe it has to do with your personality. Could some of the needs in the hierarchy of needs really be a different order of priority, for INTJs and maybe some other types as well? Maybe the last step, for instance, would always be above the need for love/belonging and the need for respect? Hmmm

    It doesn't sound like you feel blocked in any way. If you don't, then you don't. Don't try to think yourself into being blocked! Not that an INTJ would be likely to do that

  2. #12
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    No, all I want is honesty. Your response was interesting. Could it have something to do with your age? I could relate to the last step more than some of the bottom steps, too, when I was still living with my parents. Or, more interestingly, maybe it has to do with your personality. Could some of the needs in the hierarchy of needs really be a different order of priority, for INTJs and maybe some other types as well? Maybe the last step, for instance, would always be above the need for love/belonging and the need for respect? Hmmm

    It doesn't sound like you feel blocked in any way. If you don't, then you don't. Don't try to think yourself into being blocked! Not that an INTJ would be likely to do that
    Well certainly since I'm only 17 it has some affect on it. I probably will focus more on the Physiological, Safety steps when I move out, since I will have to provide for myself and get employment.

    But, I think it also has to do with my personality. I don't feel blocked no, I see those steps as five separate pools that I can pull from independently and not related to any order. Except for the first two, those seem like requirements for a steady life. I think I relate mostly (when you kick out the first two steps) to the last step, Self-actualization, and equally relate to the Love/Belonging step, then lastly the Esteem. Keep in mind I say this all on the basis of what you defined, I haven't studied this 'step' theory outside of what you have written.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  3. #13
    Senior Member creativeRhino's Avatar
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    SquirrelTao,

    an oldie here (49).

    I've had an "interesting life" - both from the good and bad of "what happens" and the stuff (good and bad) I've brought on myself

    I've had amazing successes, excesses as well as absolutely unfortunate events (a bit like Lemony Snickett's stuff) parents who died young, a travel (mis)adventures, divorce, and then being widowed and made redundant around the same time etc).

    To learn what does make one happy one needs to experience and that generally does take time. Of course you can have a fastpaced "bootcamp" of a life from external events or by choosing to live that way.

    Many of the things we think will make us happy/content don't. And then when we find something we like (eg money/power/prestige) we can fail to work out what equals "enough". Then we discover good in unexpected places. Life is full ironies - you can get nowhere near where you want to be by failing to have "focus" or good method as well as getting into some crazy things that aren't what you intended by having blinkered "too much" focus/method.

    I'm thinking of the line "Just give me a chance to prove that money can't buy me happiness!" as an example.

    I knew I wanted to have a life that wasn't just being in a boring low paid job. I needed mental stimulation and money would make life "more fun". So I chased both in my career but sometimes forgot why I was there: working long hours and seeking $ at the expense of living "now" and remembering why I chose that path - to be able to have more time to do creative stuff - and my worklife left me with very little time for fun.

    Both my hubby and I got hung up on this - we wanted to retire early - so "delayed gratification" to speed this up. And largely it worked. The efforts into our work made careers boom, our finances looked good and we were only a few years away from "it". Both of us felt like we were one step away from self-actualization.

    Hmmm..... He didn't live long enough to get there - and became acutely aware of the lack of balance the life he had lived. So events threw me back down to dealing with "love/affiliation" then I lost my job and I had to deal with the material stuff again....

    Also, sometimes I've jumped the gun - eg having too much fun while not taking care of the $ stuff so having to backtrack. My first lesson in real sustainability!

    Experience really is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted!


    In reality I don't see "self actualisation" as a single destination - but as a stairway of sorts. You start out with some ideas about where you want to be and work towards it and get to a plateau of feeling like you've "got it". Then you may want to go up a level and this may mean going back to address some material need (eg more money) or something from one of the "prior" levels. Not having "all" that you think you need won't stop you - you may actually be set up well for the next level, but just don't think you are ready or are just plain old scared to take the next step.

    You need to be able to recognise this - via goals that you can measure / quantify. eg get a place to live or education of a certain level and be a bit flexible/adaptable about this en route and don't forget what it is you are ultimately seeking - be brave and push the boundaries to see if you really have "enough" of a foundation for the next level. Workplaces are full of folks who are miserable because they've become to busy with the journey to notice they're at their destination. Life is full of people thinking they just need a bit more "preparation" to do something.

    All that "fridge magnet wisdom" (icky, but often really true!) along the lines of dreaming, setting goals, doing, experimenting, bravery and handling life's setbacks really is true. For me it isn't about getting my "dreams" but going after them (giving them your proverbial "best shot") that is what brings the self actualization.

  4. #14
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Thanks, creativeRhino, for sharing your life experience! It's so hard to balance delayed gratification/goal-seeking with enjoying life/living in the now/fun and creativity. I've always had that struggle, too. Although we're different types, your basic conflicts remind me of mine. I suppose none of us can escape the conflict between the pleasure principle and the reality principle once we set off on a goal-oriented path with a strong drive to achieve.

    What you've said kind of confirms a worry I've had about the general trajectory of my together with my dh. We have freedom and options, due to working hard and getting into a better financial situation than when we were younger, but I feel as if we don't use our options or enjoy our freedom and resources as much as we could. I think it's due to fear combined with habit.

    I really appreciate your honesty, because so often in my life, older people have given me advice along the lines of not to whine...you don't know what hardship is...you'll learn that in life plans never work out...

    BTW, age is just a number; and anyway, Tom Hanks said that 40 is the new 30, and 50 is the new 40.

  5. #15
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    I'm so glad you started this thread cos it's got me thinking (good one lol) and thanks creativeRhino cos what you say makes a lot of sense. I think about 10 years ago now I may have been near self-actualisation level and ever since I've managed to stay low at the bottom of the pyramind. I was just so calm, content and without a worry, I've been trying to get back there ever since.

    So ya got me thinking as to why I am stuck at the bottom and what was different back then?? Like said above when living at home with my parents I really didn't have to worry about stuff like money and having a job. I was confident in what I wanted to do as a career but then I got bored (some INTJ trait I hear) to the point of aaaah I just can't do this anymore and I sat and wasted a few years stuck there until recently I decided to change career paths which is as tough as I had procrastinated it would be but also a massive relief. I guess for a long time now I've felt insecure in my employment because I knew I was going to have to take a risk and up root myself at some point.

    Family was better back then but I have no idea how to fix that. Crap does that mean I'm stuck down here forever lol! I keep that at the back of my mind but when I force myself to think about it my family really does make me sad. That was something that was different back then when I was more content so I guess I need to try and make a mends.

    Health is good now but suffered a major depression which set me back. Took me ages to get over that. Sheesh that makes me angry, so much wasted time!! had to happen though.

    I love my friendships - no worries there. I probably expect more from them than I did 10 years ago though.

    And I was creative and loving painting but now I just can't get back into that groove. I think in itself that has something to do with sponaneity. I spend a whole lot of time thinking about doing it and not actually doing. As a kid I just painted whatever I felt like at the time. It didn't have to be a masterpiece everytime.

    Anyway I sound way depressing but I love it all you know - I just worry too much and not necessarily about the right things. ie I should quit worrying about my career path and start focusing on overcoming my issues with my family. If the hierachy is correct then that is the only way up. Maybe I will not even care so much about my career if I get through the thick of that one. I may be content just where I am and feel secure in it or maybe what I truelly want to do will suddenly come to me.

    Ugh... telling my family how hurt I am in a civil manner is going to be a really emotional and icky thing to do. I don't know if this little INTJ can deal with that lol.

    Another relevant point is that having a artistic career reduced my motivation in art to pleasing others and making money - that was a big reason for making career change. I'm sure you can get around that when doing art as a career but I just couldn't. It took the fun out of it.

    Sorry for the novel... but you did ask.

  6. #16
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
    And I was creative and loving painting but now I just can't get back into that groove. I think in itself that has something to do with sponaneity. I spend a whole lot of time thinking about doing it and not actually doing. As a kid I just painted whatever I felt like at the time. It didn't have to be a masterpiece everytime.
    I can really relate to this. I struggle with this problem, too. I am able to kick the problem temporarily, but it always returns. I try too hard, and I care too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
    Ugh... telling my family how hurt I am in a civil manner is going to be a really emotional and icky thing to do. I don't know if this little INTJ can deal with that lol.
    It would be hard for anybody to do, but I would think it would be especially hard for an INTJ, given that y'all don't like to wallow in emotion too much. But maybe you'll be able to come up with a good strategy for going about it. I think it's important to lighten up your emotional baggage no matter what type you are. But it's easier said than done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
    Another relevant point is that having a artistic career reduced my motivation in art to pleasing others and making money - that was a big reason for making career change. I'm sure you can get around that when doing art as a career but I just couldn't. It took the fun out of it.
    My dream was to become independently wealthy as an entrepreneur when young, then to devote my life to writing, without worrying about making money from it. Didn't happen. It was a nice dream, though

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
    Sorry for the novel... but you did ask.
    No problem, I love in-depth responses. A question like the one I posed almost requires a novel for an answer, anyway!

  7. #17
    Senior Member creativeRhino's Avatar
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    Hi Cindy,

    Ah, the dilemma of turning a passion for profit. I knew many music lovers who tried that and their careers went "bung". But is it a mistake of the career choice or is it a self management problem within that choice?


    I think it is the latter in most cases - just not having the best way of doing it rather than the doing it in the broadest sense. I think for most people's mental health they need a hobby outside of earning - even if what they do to earn money is a real passion? Now if one is in a really horrid work type/environment (subjectively for preferences and maybe even objectively) that can't be healthy. So trying to have art/music when exhausted from a bad job will be a challenge - but I know a few people who did just that: a day job and a passionate life.

    I spent 20 years in IT (great earning potential but a real hard one to keep balanced work/life wise) and then when my husband was dying the hospice had a "diversionary therapy" of ceramic plate painting. It got me hooked and bit by bit I was doing more and more and then did a whole "TAFE" diploma in Ceramics. Most folks thought it was a very strange thing for me to do (never having shown any artistic skills!) and thought I'd taken leave of my senses.

    Not having shown more than technical/logical/managerial skills to the world also had me doubt my own sanity. Then after my husband died I visited the pastoral care person at the hospice and she just put me onto the book by Julia Cameron "The Artist's Way". I went to the bookshop and thought "ick, newage waffle". But I remembered how good this person's advice / support had been (a real SF person!) and decided to trust.

    The book is like a self run bootcamp to "unblock" your creativity - daily and weekly exercises. Boy, did I kind of feel self conscious and silly doing a lot of them. (Daily writings called "morning pages", kid-type of artistic things to make dreams visual etc) and good concepts - one of them being the concept of a "crazy maker" - the people in your life who disrupt themselves and all around them - and how they have us as sometimes willing hostages.
    Another one is all about our inner critic (both of these are real INTJ banes).

    (btw - Crazymakers are people we fail to deal with effectively because we can kind of depend on them to help us stay put in our "boxes" - ie. they are trying to confound us just by being themselves and we can use them as an excuse! Crazymakers hate it when you deal with them to remove their effect from your life too!)

    Anyway I stuck it out and ended up doing the TAFE Diploma. I'd found a new way of looking at the stuff that "the world" told me that kept me in "my place". My INTJness in the course had me behave and think very differently from the others but made it easy to get the necessary discipline to develop skills I would never have believed possible. In the Info tech domain INTJness is seen as "good" but in the art world it can be a perceived as a liability - not enough "feeling" and "flow" but one of my teachers told me some of the most successful artists where more INTJ like or had a partner who had those attributes. The conventional artistic types were more likely to fail to captialise on skills and opportunities. Rather than learning to be more feely I learned to let my intuition get stronger - working out when I was "done" with a piece and not over work it, and surrender to a "flow". I had to stop trying to produce an almost "machined pot" but play with natural imperfections that have character but are not "flawed".

    I can't see myself becoming a full time ceramic artist but I wouldn't rule it out. But what I got from the whole experience of the book and the course was that I really didn't have a clue what I could do and how I could really limit myself.

    Prior to this I'd done quite a bit of self development work privately and professionally and had sorted out all the "adult in business" stuff (that challenges, matures, broadens and toughens us) that was counter productive inner critic and beliefs, but not with the (dare I, an INTJ, say it) "inner child" stuff - really what brings us joy. I realised how low my expectations for joy were! So, how much is enough "joy"? I don't know. You can't make joy, just get rid of as many barriers to accessing it as you can (internal and external ones) to experiencing it when it is there. What I am trying to express here is that joy is a kind of "flow" thing -
    Flow (psychology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
    a technique and a surrender to "it".

    The Julia Cameron stuff has really given me a set of tools about being "blocked". So I managed to unblock myself initially AND helped me work recognise when I was getting blocked up again (and again and again).

    I think the INTJ inner critic is a noisy beast. You can't ignore it, but you can befriend it and distract/quieten it long enough to do some great things... Ditto with life's crazy-makers.

    hope this makes some sense

  8. #18
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creativeRhino View Post
    Ah, the dilemma of turning a passion for profit. I knew many music lovers who tried that and their careers went "bung". But is it a mistake of the career choice or is it a self management problem within that choice?
    That's a good point. I would make a further distinction between self-employment and employment by others. Employment by others can take away the option to be self managing in the way that is the most effective for you.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Ishida's Avatar
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    Maybe, I'm not really interested in rolling in the dough. So yes and no.
    What a waste of life..

  10. #20
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    What means "self-actualized" ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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