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[MBTI General] Rationale...BLEH! HAH!

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If you guys were really rational, then you would see the logic/rationality of expressing your feelings, getting out there, and interacting with folks on a regular basis!

Maybe you do, but if what I see from these posts are any indication, you do not express yourselves nearly as efficiently as we NFs.

:party2::devil:

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... no.


How's that for expressing myself efficiently?
 
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Thank you. "Flame threads" are worthwhile because I learned a great deal about you and how you think.

And anyway, yes, it was a serious question.

I think it is fascinating how you folks throw "flame threads" at us all the time, but the first time one of us asks an uncomfortable, penetrating question - you guys flip out.

And, yes, to answer your question, I deliberately used the word "efficiently." I never say anything without thinking about it. I'm an English teacher. I meant it facetiously to get you thinking.

Regardless of what you all think, I got you thinking and talking. SO THERE! :hi:

If you're an English teacher I hope you don't generalize so much when you're actually teaching a text. It would warp the students' minds.

I.E.
Most of us actually haven't flipped out at all and have seriously and/or humorously responded to what was basically a blank condemnation garbed in the clothing of a benign interrogative sentence.

Also, I think it's pretty obvious from posts all across the forum that NTs can be very passionate about things and people. I know I am.
 
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Interesting... I was thinking about the fact that Carolyn is an ENFP English teacher and musing on her perspective on the difference between NTs and NFs.... it almost seems like a good analogy would be:

NT:NF :: Philosophy:Literature

Discuss.

Hint: This is no mere dichotomy... there are too many overlaps... I'm thinking philosophy-heavy writers like Dostoevsky and literature-heavy philosophers like Nietzsche... and the granddaddy of all synergetic overlaps: literary theory.
 

Tigerlily

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Oh geez...I SAID I was sorry I offended anyone. The comment about flame threads was facetious. That's why I put it in quotation marks. Can't we just drop it?
Way to go CB! :static:

A feeler's reaction to conflict will always at some point involve emotion whereas an NT will usually say what's on their mind and move on and for that I'm gelus.

Edit: Also unless you are familiar with intuitive thinkers, started a thread such as this one can only end with the NF apologizing and/or getting their feelings hurt. Were you bored or just enjoy getting smacked around or both?
 

Orangey

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Hint: This is no mere dichotomy... there are too many overlaps... I'm thinking philosophy-heavy writers like Dostoevsky and literature-heavy philosophers like Nietzsche... and the granddaddy of all synergetic overlaps: literary theory.

I find that literary/cultural theory (in some of its forms, not all) is filled with brazen misinterpretations of philosophical (and literary) notions. For instance, I once read a book by the feminist "theorist" Luce Irigaray where she tried to equate the universal and existential quantifiers of formal logic with "male" and "female" essences, respectively, and then proceeded to argue that there was a preference for the universal over the existential.

Of course, what she was saying was utter nonsense. Now I'm not trying to condemn all of this sort of theory, but I have to admit that the likes of the postmodern, post-structural, and deconstructionist theories seem, to me at least, to be a bastardization of both philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics).

As to your question of NT:philosophy, NF:Literature, I'm not sure that there is a relationship. Are you talking about the actual practice of philosophy/literature or the propensity of either type to choose these as fields of study?

It's okay. I have some too. Just not the same ones. Can't understand you guys and I wanted to learn more.

When you say that you can't understand NT's as a group, this suggests that you understand NF's better. To presume to understand NF's better because they share some cognitive similarities with yourself suggests that you are oversimplifying MBTI theory.
 

SquirrelTao

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Interesting... I was thinking about the fact that Carolyn is an ENFP English teacher and musing on her perspective on the difference between NTs and NFs.... it almost seems like a good analogy would be:

NT:NF :: Philosophy:Literature

Discuss.

Hint: This is no mere dichotomy... there are too many overlaps... I'm thinking philosophy-heavy writers like Dostoevsky and literature-heavy philosophers like Nietzsche... and the granddaddy of all synergetic overlaps: literary theory.

I feel comfortable and competent with both, but I barely have a feeling preference and tested with a strong thinking preference when younger. I was once in a philosophy forum where the majority of the most frequent participants tested as INTPs.
 

alcea rosea

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Edit: Also unless you are familiar with intuitive thinkers, started a thread such as this one can only end with the NF apologizing and/or getting their feelings hurt. Were you bored or just enjoy getting smacked around or both?

I agree.
Don't mess with NT's.
They are cruel people.
They scare me.

lol

Most of time I try to avoid even arguing with NT's because I LOSE ALWAYS. And I HATE losing. NT's are not the ones to argue logically but when it comes to emotions and showing them, I'll get my revenge. :devil:

lol
 
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I agree.
Don't mess with NT's.
They are cruel people.
They scare me.

lol

Most of time I try to avoid even arguing with NT's because I LOSE ALWAYS. And I HATE losing. NT's are not the ones to argue logically but when it comes to emotions and showing them, I'll get my revenge. :devil:

lol

How refreshingly mature your outlook is.
 
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I find that literary/cultural theory (in some of its forms, not all) is filled with brazen misinterpretations of philosophical (and literary) notions. For instance, I once read a book by the feminist "theorist" Luce Irigaray where she tried to equate the universal and existential quantifiers of formal logic with "male" and "female" essences, respectively, and then proceeded to argue that there was a preference for the universal over the existential.

Of course, what she was saying was utter nonsense. Now I'm not trying to condemn all of this sort of theory, but I have to admit that the likes of the postmodern, post-structural, and deconstructionist theories seem, to me at least, to be a bastardization of both philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics).
There's rank bullshit in all fields... so I'm not even going to talk about Luce Irigaray and her ilk.

As for postmodernism, post-structuralism, and deconstruction, the literary theory fields and Critical Theory, (there's no such thing as deconstructionism btw) being bastardizations of philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics)... the use of the word "bastardization" is attaching a value to something whose value has yet to be demonstrated. It condemns the analysand before analysis has even begun. In lieu of bastardization one can call these systems (let's just call them Critical Theory for short) interdisciplinary, boundary-smashing, syncretic, integral... I don't see this status as something necessarily negative at all.

Indeed, what's so fantastic about critical theory is that it turns a critical eye on not only the discourse of any given system, but also on the mode of discourse, the prevailing mechanisms of discourse. Critical Theory is the discipline of self-reflexivity par excellence and has provided some incredibly rich insights. Without the general trend of thought that many have classed as Critical Theory, we would not have Nietzsche, Foucault, Edward Said, and a host of other groundbreaking theorists shedding new light on the way we look at the world.

The linguistic turn is possibly responsible for some of the most intelligent thinking done today. I won't talk about Derrida since he's incomprehensible to everyone but Gayatri Spivak, Kristeva, and a few other thinkers who are unfortunately quite inaccessible to the masses. Critical Theory is a parallel to the scientific breakthroughs in relativity and quantum physics in the liberal arts and didn't necessarily follow the science.



As to your question of NT:philosophy, NF:Literature, I'm not sure that there is a relationship. Are you talking about the actual practice of philosophy/literature or the propensity of either type to choose these as fields of study?

Both and neither.
 

Orangey

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There's rank bullshit in all fields... so I'm not even going to talk about Luce Irigaray and her ilk.

Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others.

As for postmodernism, post-structuralism, and deconstruction, the literary theory fields and Critical Theory, (there's no such thing as deconstructionism btw) being bastardizations of philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics)... the use of the word "bastardization" is attaching a value to something who's value has yet to be demonstrated. It condemns the analysand before analysis has even begun. In lieu of bastardization one can call these systems (let's just call them Critical Theory for short) interdisciplinary, boundary-smashing, syncretic, integral... I don't see this status as something necessarily negative at all.

1.) I had to find a way to turn the word "deconstruction" into an adjective. I could have recast the sentence to avoid having to do this, but I am lazy.

2.) The word "bastardization" was perhaps too strong. I did not mean to imply that the interdisciplinary nature of critical theory is negative in any way. I only meant to say that in some particular instances, the integration of fields in critical theory is used less for the purpose of uniting them coherently than for obscuring all involved.

3.) It is difficult to unite these types of theories under one banner, which is why I chose to name only a few which I believe to generally contain a lot of bullshit (and also because they are the ones that I am most familiar with). This does not exclude the possibility that there could be many great theorists that include themselves under such headings as I have listed (though there is a general reluctance to do this among the 'postmodernists' anyway). I am only referring to some of the bigger representatives of these fields such as Baudrillard, Lyotard, Deleuze, etc... whose work I find very difficult to take seriously. I did not mean to make a blanket condemnation of the field, especially given that even the theories that share a given heading can vary widely from one another in concept and methodology.
 

alcea rosea

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How refreshingly mature your outlook is.

Yes I know. ;)

But there is a truth of seed in what I wrote. I do not argue with NT's, especially xNTP's. And believe me, I have over 30 years of experience in dealing with one in my family. Most NT's are good in logical reasoning. NF's can be that too, but... Many NT's on the other hand are not so good when dealing with their emotions (but some can be).

What I was trying to say was that there are different strenghts in the people of different types.

I'm not so worried if I'm seen immature. Life is not that serious and I'm trying to teach that to my 3 children too. ;)
 

Orangey

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Yes I know. ;)

But there is a truth of seed in what I wrote. I do not argue with NT's, especially xNTP's. And believe me, I have over 30 years of experience in dealing with one in my family. Most NT's are good in logical reasoning. NF's can be that too, but... Many NT's on the other hand are not so good when dealing with their emotions (but some can be).

What I was trying to say was that there are different strenghts in the people of different types.

I'm not so worried if I'm seen immature. Life is not that serious and I'm trying to teach that to my 3 children too. ;)

Seed of truth? :D
 
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Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others.

1.) I had to find a way to turn the word "deconstruction" into an adjective. I could have recast the sentence to avoid having to do this, but I am lazy.

2.) The word "bastardization" was perhaps too strong. I did not mean to imply that the interdisciplinary nature of critical theory is negative in any way. I only meant to say that in some particular instances, the integration of fields in critical theory is used less for the purpose of uniting them coherently than for obscuring all involved.

3.) It is difficult to unite these types of theories under one banner, which is why I chose to name only a few which I believe to generally contain a lot of bullshit (and also because they are the ones that I am most familiar with). This does not exclude the possibility that there could be many great theorists that include themselves under such headings as I have listed (though there is a general reluctance to do this among the 'postmodernists' anyway). I am only referring to some of the bigger representatives of these fields such as Baudrillard, Lyotard, Deleuze, etc... whose work I find very difficult to take seriously. I did not mean to make a blanket condemnation of the field, especially given that even the theories that share a given heading can vary widely from one another in concept and methodology.

I think it's unfair to imply that most (<-- it comes out that way in your second point) Critical theorists are trying to be obfuscatory. Besides, this a problem a great deal of 'pure' philosophers have too... certain literary writers are famous for it (Faulkner is unwieldy and Joyce's Finnegan's Wake is one big cryptogram)... I think maybe one reason Critical Theory tends to get confusing is because it's dealing with very difficult subject matter, like the nature of the copula (attribution, existence, etc.).

But I'll give this to you... a lot of postmodernism can get very tiring. I just don't want the excellent example of interdisciplinary learning to be lost... I think the next ten or twenty years will see a lot of scholars who try to correct this imbalance and bring out the best in Critical Theory... I think Ken Wilber's an excellent example of what can be great about the influence of postmodernism.

Deleuze makes a lot of sense to me (at least in his work with Guattari)!

As for 3... yes... it's so very complicated... half the point of postmodernism (and a side effect of Critical Theory) is the tendency to want to displace everything and break down structures, which is very difficult to do. One of my academic/life's goals is to reveal the utter stupidity and excessively dangerous false paradigm of "East and West". If I ever write that book I need to write, I'm pretty sure most people will think I'm crazy, talking about nothing, or just plain boring. But it's important to me. And I think this tends to happen with a lot of the people we're talking about.

Derrida's a good example... he's so very important... and yet so misunderstood... if one can take the time to break it down, it does make sense.


I'd like to add that Nagarjuna, one of my heroes, a Madhyamika Buddhist from India, is a major anticipation of this trend in thought. Most people find him tiresome and completely incomprehensible... but I see great meaning in his work...

I guess it depends very greatly on the individual writer... if deconstruction has taught us anything, it's that generalizing great movements often leads to antinomies.
 

Orangey

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I think it's unfair to imply that most (<-- it comes out that way in your second point) Critical theorists are trying to be obfuscatory. Besides, this a problem a great deal of 'pure' philosophers have too... certain literary writers are famous for it (Faulkner is unwieldy and Joyce's Finnegan's Wake is one big cryptogram)... I think maybe one reason Critical Theory tends to get confusing is because it's dealing with very difficult subject matter, like the nature of the copula (attribution, existence, etc.).

"Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others." Was it that statement that gave the impression? That was just a jibe.

But I'll give this to you... a lot of postmodernism can get very tiring. I just don't want the excellent example of interdisciplinary learning to be lost... I think the next ten or twenty years will see a lot of scholars who try to correct this imbalance and bring out the best in Critical Theory... I think Ken Wilber's an excellent example of what can be great about the influence of postmodernism.

I don't think that interdisciplinary scholarship is negative. The postmodern stuff isn't the only (nor by any means best) representative of interdisciplinary scholarship out there.

Deleuze makes a lot of sense to me (at least in his work with Guattari)!

I probably don't try hard enough with him (probably because when I try to get through a paragraph my brain closes down). I made it through "Anti-Oedipus", but I understood very little of it. I suppose the "performative" aspect of reading it overrode the clarity of the ideas.
 
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"Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others." Was it that statement that gave the impression? That was just a jibe.

Yeah and gotcha.

I don't think that interdisciplinary scholarship is negative. The postmodern stuff isn't the only (nor by any means best) representative of interdisciplinary scholarship out there.

I'm not saying it's the 'best' (whatever that means), but I do think it's often the most daring. Also, Critical Theory/PoMo/whatever has the tendency to break down words and terminologies, modes of discourse (as I said earlier) much more than other interdisciplinary scholarship... or at least if one can generalize that movement it seems to have that at its core.

I probably don't try hard enough with him (probably because when I try to get through a paragraph my brain closes down). I made it through "Anti-Oedipus", but I understood very little of it. I suppose the "performative" aspect of reading it overrode the clarity of the ideas.

That often happens... I've been reading that book for almost six months now. Problem is it requires a lot of re-reading of Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud, which authors are themselves quite difficult to get a really solid grasp on (particularly Nietzsche... Freud has many phases and Marx... well, he's just boring).
 

Orangey

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That often happens... I've been reading that book for almost six months now. Problem is it requires a lot of re-reading of Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud, which authors are themselves quite difficult to get a really solid grasp on (particularly Nietzsche... Freud has many phases and Marx... well, he's just boring).

Yes it took me a terribly long time to read, and I had to go back and re-read all those authors, particularly Freud (well, only pertinent works). And Marx is boring. All this on top of that dense prose made it virtually impossible for me to understand the book the first time through. Perhaps I will re-read.
 
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