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  1. #81
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolyn Beine View Post
    If you guys were really rational, then you would see the logic/rationality of expressing your feelings, getting out there, and interacting with folks on a regular basis!

    Maybe you do, but if what I see from these posts are any indication, you do not express yourselves nearly as efficiently as we NFs.

    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... no.


    How's that for expressing myself efficiently?
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  2. #82
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolyn Beine View Post
    Thank you. "Flame threads" are worthwhile because I learned a great deal about you and how you think.

    And anyway, yes, it was a serious question.

    I think it is fascinating how you folks throw "flame threads" at us all the time, but the first time one of us asks an uncomfortable, penetrating question - you guys flip out.

    And, yes, to answer your question, I deliberately used the word "efficiently." I never say anything without thinking about it. I'm an English teacher. I meant it facetiously to get you thinking.

    Regardless of what you all think, I got you thinking and talking. SO THERE!
    If you're an English teacher I hope you don't generalize so much when you're actually teaching a text. It would warp the students' minds.

    I.E.
    Most of us actually haven't flipped out at all and have seriously and/or humorously responded to what was basically a blank condemnation garbed in the clothing of a benign interrogative sentence.

    Also, I think it's pretty obvious from posts all across the forum that NTs can be very passionate about things and people. I know I am.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  3. #83
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Interesting... I was thinking about the fact that Carolyn is an ENFP English teacher and musing on her perspective on the difference between NTs and NFs.... it almost seems like a good analogy would be:

    NT:NF :: Philosophy:Literature

    Discuss.

    Hint: This is no mere dichotomy... there are too many overlaps... I'm thinking philosophy-heavy writers like Dostoevsky and literature-heavy philosophers like Nietzsche... and the granddaddy of all synergetic overlaps: literary theory.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  4. #84
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolyn Beine View Post
    Oh geez...I SAID I was sorry I offended anyone. The comment about flame threads was facetious. That's why I put it in quotation marks. Can't we just drop it?
    Way to go CB!

    A feeler's reaction to conflict will always at some point involve emotion whereas an NT will usually say what's on their mind and move on and for that I'm gelus.

    Edit: Also unless you are familiar with intuitive thinkers, started a thread such as this one can only end with the NF apologizing and/or getting their feelings hurt. Were you bored or just enjoy getting smacked around or both?
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  5. #85
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Hint: This is no mere dichotomy... there are too many overlaps... I'm thinking philosophy-heavy writers like Dostoevsky and literature-heavy philosophers like Nietzsche... and the granddaddy of all synergetic overlaps: literary theory.
    I find that literary/cultural theory (in some of its forms, not all) is filled with brazen misinterpretations of philosophical (and literary) notions. For instance, I once read a book by the feminist "theorist" Luce Irigaray where she tried to equate the universal and existential quantifiers of formal logic with "male" and "female" essences, respectively, and then proceeded to argue that there was a preference for the universal over the existential.

    Of course, what she was saying was utter nonsense. Now I'm not trying to condemn all of this sort of theory, but I have to admit that the likes of the postmodern, post-structural, and deconstructionist theories seem, to me at least, to be a bastardization of both philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics).

    As to your question of NT:Philosophy, NF:Literature, I'm not sure that there is a relationship. Are you talking about the actual practice of philosophy/literature or the propensity of either type to choose these as fields of study?

    It's okay. I have some too. Just not the same ones. Can't understand you guys and I wanted to learn more.
    When you say that you can't understand NT's as a group, this suggests that you understand NF's better. To presume to understand NF's better because they share some cognitive similarities with yourself suggests that you are oversimplifying MBTI theory.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #86
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Interesting... I was thinking about the fact that Carolyn is an ENFP English teacher and musing on her perspective on the difference between NTs and NFs.... it almost seems like a good analogy would be:

    NT:NF :: Philosophy:Literature

    Discuss.

    Hint: This is no mere dichotomy... there are too many overlaps... I'm thinking philosophy-heavy writers like Dostoevsky and literature-heavy philosophers like Nietzsche... and the granddaddy of all synergetic overlaps: literary theory.
    I feel comfortable and competent with both, but I barely have a feeling preference and tested with a strong thinking preference when younger. I was once in a philosophy forum where the majority of the most frequent participants tested as INTPs.

  7. #87
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    Edit: Also unless you are familiar with intuitive thinkers, started a thread such as this one can only end with the NF apologizing and/or getting their feelings hurt. Were you bored or just enjoy getting smacked around or both?
    I agree.
    Don't mess with NT's.
    They are cruel people.
    They scare me.

    lol

    Most of time I try to avoid even arguing with NT's because I LOSE ALWAYS. And I HATE losing. NT's are not the ones to argue logically but when it comes to emotions and showing them, I'll get my revenge.

    lol

  8. #88
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    I agree.
    Don't mess with NT's.
    They are cruel people.
    They scare me.

    lol

    Most of time I try to avoid even arguing with NT's because I LOSE ALWAYS. And I HATE losing. NT's are not the ones to argue logically but when it comes to emotions and showing them, I'll get my revenge.

    lol
    How refreshingly mature your outlook is.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  9. #89
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I find that literary/cultural theory (in some of its forms, not all) is filled with brazen misinterpretations of philosophical (and literary) notions. For instance, I once read a book by the feminist "theorist" Luce Irigaray where she tried to equate the universal and existential quantifiers of formal logic with "male" and "female" essences, respectively, and then proceeded to argue that there was a preference for the universal over the existential.

    Of course, what she was saying was utter nonsense. Now I'm not trying to condemn all of this sort of theory, but I have to admit that the likes of the postmodern, post-structural, and deconstructionist theories seem, to me at least, to be a bastardization of both philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics).
    There's rank bullshit in all fields... so I'm not even going to talk about Luce Irigaray and her ilk.

    As for postmodernism, post-structuralism, and deconstruction, the literary theory fields and Critical Theory, (there's no such thing as deconstructionism btw) being bastardizations of philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics)... the use of the word "bastardization" is attaching a value to something whose value has yet to be demonstrated. It condemns the analysand before analysis has even begun. In lieu of bastardization one can call these systems (let's just call them Critical Theory for short) interdisciplinary, boundary-smashing, syncretic, integral... I don't see this status as something necessarily negative at all.

    Indeed, what's so fantastic about critical theory is that it turns a critical eye on not only the discourse of any given system, but also on the mode of discourse, the prevailing mechanisms of discourse. Critical Theory is the discipline of self-reflexivity par excellence and has provided some incredibly rich insights. Without the general trend of thought that many have classed as Critical Theory, we would not have Nietzsche, Foucault, Edward Said, and a host of other groundbreaking theorists shedding new light on the way we look at the world.

    The linguistic turn is possibly responsible for some of the most intelligent thinking done today. I won't talk about Derrida since he's incomprehensible to everyone but Gayatri Spivak, Kristeva, and a few other thinkers who are unfortunately quite inaccessible to the masses. Critical Theory is a parallel to the scientific breakthroughs in relativity and quantum physics in the liberal arts and didn't necessarily follow the science.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    As to your question of NT:Philosophy, NF:Literature, I'm not sure that there is a relationship. Are you talking about the actual practice of philosophy/literature or the propensity of either type to choose these as fields of study?
    Both and neither.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #90
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    There's rank bullshit in all fields... so I'm not even going to talk about Luce Irigaray and her ilk.
    Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others.

    As for postmodernism, post-structuralism, and deconstruction, the literary theory fields and Critical Theory, (there's no such thing as deconstructionism btw) being bastardizations of philosophy and literature (and to some extent, mathematics and physics)... the use of the word "bastardization" is attaching a value to something who's value has yet to be demonstrated. It condemns the analysand before analysis has even begun. In lieu of bastardization one can call these systems (let's just call them Critical Theory for short) interdisciplinary, boundary-smashing, syncretic, integral... I don't see this status as something necessarily negative at all.
    1.) I had to find a way to turn the word "deconstruction" into an adjective. I could have recast the sentence to avoid having to do this, but I am lazy.

    2.) The word "bastardization" was perhaps too strong. I did not mean to imply that the interdisciplinary nature of critical theory is negative in any way. I only meant to say that in some particular instances, the integration of fields in critical theory is used less for the purpose of uniting them coherently than for obscuring all involved.

    3.) It is difficult to unite these types of theories under one banner, which is why I chose to name only a few which I believe to generally contain a lot of bullshit (and also because they are the ones that I am most familiar with). This does not exclude the possibility that there could be many great theorists that include themselves under such headings as I have listed (though there is a general reluctance to do this among the 'postmodernists' anyway). I am only referring to some of the bigger representatives of these fields such as Baudrillard, Lyotard, Deleuze, etc... whose work I find very difficult to take seriously. I did not mean to make a blanket condemnation of the field, especially given that even the theories that share a given heading can vary widely from one another in concept and methodology.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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