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  1. #91
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    How refreshingly mature your outlook is.
    Yes I know.

    But there is a truth of seed in what I wrote. I do not argue with NT's, especially xNTP's. And believe me, I have over 30 years of experience in dealing with one in my family. Most NT's are good in logical reasoning. NF's can be that too, but... Many NT's on the other hand are not so good when dealing with their emotions (but some can be).

    What I was trying to say was that there are different strenghts in the people of different types.

    I'm not so worried if I'm seen immature. Life is not that serious and I'm trying to teach that to my 3 children too.

  2. #92
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    Yes I know.

    But there is a truth of seed in what I wrote. I do not argue with NT's, especially xNTP's. And believe me, I have over 30 years of experience in dealing with one in my family. Most NT's are good in logical reasoning. NF's can be that too, but... Many NT's on the other hand are not so good when dealing with their emotions (but some can be).

    What I was trying to say was that there are different strenghts in the people of different types.

    I'm not so worried if I'm seen immature. Life is not that serious and I'm trying to teach that to my 3 children too.
    Seed of truth?
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Seed of truth?
    What's a stray reversal of phrases between P's? We all do it at one time or other!

  4. #94
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Seed of truth?
    Something like that.
    <------See, English is not my native language.

  5. #95
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    Something like that.
    See, English is not my native language.
    No worries. I'm in a pedantic mood.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #96
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No worries. I'm in a pedantic mood.

  7. #97
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others.

    1.) I had to find a way to turn the word "deconstruction" into an adjective. I could have recast the sentence to avoid having to do this, but I am lazy.

    2.) The word "bastardization" was perhaps too strong. I did not mean to imply that the interdisciplinary nature of critical theory is negative in any way. I only meant to say that in some particular instances, the integration of fields in critical theory is used less for the purpose of uniting them coherently than for obscuring all involved.

    3.) It is difficult to unite these types of theories under one banner, which is why I chose to name only a few which I believe to generally contain a lot of bullshit (and also because they are the ones that I am most familiar with). This does not exclude the possibility that there could be many great theorists that include themselves under such headings as I have listed (though there is a general reluctance to do this among the 'postmodernists' anyway). I am only referring to some of the bigger representatives of these fields such as Baudrillard, Lyotard, Deleuze, etc... whose work I find very difficult to take seriously. I did not mean to make a blanket condemnation of the field, especially given that even the theories that share a given heading can vary widely from one another in concept and methodology.
    I think it's unfair to imply that most (<-- it comes out that way in your second point) Critical theorists are trying to be obfuscatory. Besides, this a problem a great deal of 'pure' philosophers have too... certain literary writers are famous for it (Faulkner is unwieldy and Joyce's Finnegan's Wake is one big cryptogram)... I think maybe one reason Critical Theory tends to get confusing is because it's dealing with very difficult subject matter, like the nature of the copula (attribution, existence, etc.).

    But I'll give this to you... a lot of postmodernism can get very tiring. I just don't want the excellent example of interdisciplinary learning to be lost... I think the next ten or twenty years will see a lot of scholars who try to correct this imbalance and bring out the best in Critical Theory... I think Ken Wilber's an excellent example of what can be great about the influence of postmodernism.

    Deleuze makes a lot of sense to me (at least in his work with Guattari)!

    As for 3... yes... it's so very complicated... half the point of postmodernism (and a side effect of Critical Theory) is the tendency to want to displace everything and break down structures, which is very difficult to do. One of my academic/life's goals is to reveal the utter stupidity and excessively dangerous false paradigm of "East and West". If I ever write that book I need to write, I'm pretty sure most people will think I'm crazy, talking about nothing, or just plain boring. But it's important to me. And I think this tends to happen with a lot of the people we're talking about.

    Derrida's a good example... he's so very important... and yet so misunderstood... if one can take the time to break it down, it does make sense.


    I'd like to add that Nagarjuna, one of my heroes, a Madhyamika Buddhist from India, is a major anticipation of this trend in thought. Most people find him tiresome and completely incomprehensible... but I see great meaning in his work...

    I guess it depends very greatly on the individual writer... if deconstruction has taught us anything, it's that generalizing great movements often leads to antinomies.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  8. #98
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I think it's unfair to imply that most (<-- it comes out that way in your second point) Critical theorists are trying to be obfuscatory. Besides, this a problem a great deal of 'pure' philosophers have too... certain literary writers are famous for it (Faulkner is unwieldy and Joyce's Finnegan's Wake is one big cryptogram)... I think maybe one reason Critical Theory tends to get confusing is because it's dealing with very difficult subject matter, like the nature of the copula (attribution, existence, etc.).
    "Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others." Was it that statement that gave the impression? That was just a jibe.

    But I'll give this to you... a lot of postmodernism can get very tiring. I just don't want the excellent example of interdisciplinary learning to be lost... I think the next ten or twenty years will see a lot of scholars who try to correct this imbalance and bring out the best in Critical Theory... I think Ken Wilber's an excellent example of what can be great about the influence of postmodernism.
    I don't think that interdisciplinary scholarship is negative. The postmodern stuff isn't the only (nor by any means best) representative of interdisciplinary scholarship out there.

    Deleuze makes a lot of sense to me (at least in his work with Guattari)!
    I probably don't try hard enough with him (probably because when I try to get through a paragraph my brain closes down). I made it through "Anti-Oedipus", but I understood very little of it. I suppose the "performative" aspect of reading it overrode the clarity of the ideas.
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  9. #99
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "Of course there is. It's just that some fields attract more of it than others." Was it that statement that gave the impression? That was just a jibe.
    Yeah and gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't think that interdisciplinary scholarship is negative. The postmodern stuff isn't the only (nor by any means best) representative of interdisciplinary scholarship out there.
    I'm not saying it's the 'best' (whatever that means), but I do think it's often the most daring. Also, Critical Theory/PoMo/whatever has the tendency to break down words and terminologies, modes of discourse (as I said earlier) much more than other interdisciplinary scholarship... or at least if one can generalize that movement it seems to have that at its core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I probably don't try hard enough with him (probably because when I try to get through a paragraph my brain closes down). I made it through "Anti-Oedipus", but I understood very little of it. I suppose the "performative" aspect of reading it overrode the clarity of the ideas.
    That often happens... I've been reading that book for almost six months now. Problem is it requires a lot of re-reading of Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud, which authors are themselves quite difficult to get a really solid grasp on (particularly Nietzsche... Freud has many phases and Marx... well, he's just boring).
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #100
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    That often happens... I've been reading that book for almost six months now. Problem is it requires a lot of re-reading of Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud, which authors are themselves quite difficult to get a really solid grasp on (particularly Nietzsche... Freud has many phases and Marx... well, he's just boring).
    Yes it took me a terribly long time to read, and I had to go back and re-read all those authors, particularly Freud (well, only pertinent works). And Marx is boring. All this on top of that dense prose made it virtually impossible for me to understand the book the first time through. Perhaps I will re-read.
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