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View Poll Results: Do INTJs Overdevelop Thinking and Underdevelop Intuition

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  • Yes, please explain

    3 23.08%
  • No, please explain

    10 76.92%
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Properly understood, while raw, undifferentiated inferior Se often frustrates Ni-thinking, properly differentiated Se supports Ni-thinking, as real world experience is essential to refine Ni visions, and allow those visions to be applied in real life, and not just in your head.
    I'm wondering how these 'refined Ni visions' manifest into life.

    I have a few thoughts about what might make your visionary Ni realizations process work:
    1. Many mystics say things like, "you attract all events in your life", or "your focus determines your reality" and such, but I've never known how literally to take those radical beliefs.
    2. Some philosophers (like Nietzsche or Spinoza) make claims like, "the will is a force and a world mover", or that "the will of God is the prime cause", making it a potential 'will to action'.
    3. All of our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions. Perhaps they way you are 'seeing' the world influences the way it will be shaped (this combines the first 2 principles outlined).

  2. #52
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    By the bye, ladies, how do you tell the difference between "developed" thinking and undifferentiated feeling? Both people would display concern for the impersonal, and probably argue a lot.

    The answer, as we all know, is [something about your mother] but it means something for this "developed" idea too. Or are we still thinking functions can be developed in isolation? What does that even mean?
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm hard pressed to assign a precise meaning to "taking on a function's cognitive perspective as a part of one's ego structure". While I'm well-versed in the functions and their principles, I usually don't see words like "ego structure". I do believe that the dominant function IS how you think, to the point that it's difficult to see how it affects your thinking, the same way you can't directly see the blind spots in your eyes (where the retina attaches to the nerve).
    I doubt many people utilize this particular expression. I am not sure if this is something I picked up or something I began using on my own, but it conveys what I am interested in expressing which is why I use it, for pretty much the reasons you describe. When a function perspective becomes a part of one's ego structure, it becomes a part of your ego, it informs your ego and thus, it also becomes a part of you and your sense of self. It is now inseparable from the ego, whereas I see the auxiliary and if differentiated, the tertiary, as informing the ego or in other words, the dominant function.
    The awareness I'm talking about is learning how the other functions jibe with the dominant, inform the dominant.
    Care to explain what you mean in greater detail, here?

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  4. #54
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    If "development" has any positive meaning it'd have to be something about increased sophistication of "use", and I sincerely doubt that can happen without "development" of the other end of the function. That is, develop an auxiliary means differentiate a tertiary. After all, what is a more sophisticated "Te" if not a deeper appreciation of what truths can be valued? Or for an ENTJ, what is a more sophisticated Ni if not the addition of a greater appreciation for physical process?

    But do INTJ's overemphasize extroverted thinking? Of course. A reactive rush to judgment that closes off outside options is exactly what inner perception needs when it is building some new, conscious system of concepts. The concepts are being perceived, they're arriving slowly. Because they are new, they require a tending that is half structured and half wide open--structured, so they can take at least some kind of form, but wide open so they can be what they're going to be, a system of real concepts that were drawn in and from the stuff of everything so that they could be something. It doesn't have to be that the outer expression of these ideas *as they form* is rigid and a bit hysterically "true", but that kind of overemphasis on extroverted thinking does maintain a skeleton of ideas that lets the inner shapes be free of contingent misdirection.

    The question then of "do intjs overdevelop thinking and underdevelop intution?" is more properly the question "WTF, you mean it's feeling?!" The inner world requires much less reactive outward defense if feeling, specifically as a relatively differentiated tertiary, is more pronounced. You can judge the burgeoning world of concepts from the inside using aesthetic evaluations that mirror your natural concern for "thought".

    Don't thank me later. It'll be embarrassing for all of us.
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  5. #55
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    *can only imagine how lost this thread is without his input*

  6. #56
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Care to explain what you mean in greater detail, here?
    It's easiest to see with Se contrasting with Ni. It's not so easy to see with Te informing Ni.

    Without a clear awareness of Se, it mostly gets in the way of Ni. The pattern of how Ni thinks is a kind of focusing-not-focusing, what Nardi aptly describes as a kind-of-Zen state that all people use when performing an activity in which they are a true expert. Ni uses this state all the time: one focuses on the problem at hand, synthesizing the data one has already absorbed, pushing all other concerns away. Se directly intrudes on this state for Ni, even for someone who is fairly aware of the role of Se. Similarly, Fe throws Ti for a loop, Si throws Ne for a loop, Te throws Fi for a loop.

    They're antithetical - except they're not.

    Without Se, Ni is completely ungrounded. The Ni dom usually doesn't realize that the reason the sensory stimuli of the outer world intrude on his thinking is precisely because they inform his thinking. The real disturbance isn't that Se happens at all, but that it tends to happen ALSO when the Ni dom needs to process what has already been absorbed, and absorbing more disturbs that process.

    So, without awareness, one will only randomly absorb/reject the contribution of the inferior. At worst, one will always reject the input of the inferior, and possibly appear to be insane.

    What good is Ti, if it doesn't come up with ideas for the betterment of everyone (Fe)? How does one prioritize anything using Te, if one doesn't have values (Fi) to indicate priority? How does one think outside the box (Ne), without a box to think outside of (Si)?

    By being aware, one is more likely to favor the varying inputs of the tertiary and inferior appropriately, learning how to properly reject bad input (e.g., a selfish Fi desire to get one's own way) and keep good input (an Fi desire to make things work well for everyone).
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's easiest to see with Se contrasting with Ni. It's not so easy to see with Te informing Ni.

    Without a clear awareness of Se, it mostly gets in the way of Ni. The pattern of how Ni thinks is a kind of focusing-not-focusing, what Nardi aptly describes as a kind-of-Zen state that all people use when performing an activity in which they are a true expert. Ni uses this state all the time: one focuses on the problem at hand, synthesizing the data one has already absorbed, pushing all other concerns away. Se directly intrudes on this state for Ni, even for someone who is fairly aware of the role of Se. Similarly, Fe throws Ti for a loop, Si throws Ne for a loop, Te throws Fi for a loop.

    They're antithetical - except they're not.

    Without Se, Ni is completely ungrounded. The Ni dom usually doesn't realize that the reason the sensory stimuli of the outer world intrude on his thinking is precisely because they inform his thinking. The real disturbance isn't that Se happens at all, but that it tends to happen ALSO when the Ni dom needs to process what has already been absorbed, and absorbing more disturbs that process.

    So, without awareness, one will only randomly absorb/reject the contribution of the inferior. At worst, one will always reject the input of the inferior, and possibly appear to be insane.

    What good is Ti, if it doesn't come up with ideas for the betterment of everyone (Fe)? How does one prioritize anything using Te, if one doesn't have values (Fi) to indicate priority? How does one think outside the box (Ne), without a box to think outside of (Si)?

    By being aware, one is more likely to favor the varying inputs of the tertiary and inferior appropriately, learning how to properly reject bad input (e.g., a selfish Fi desire to get one's own way) and keep good input (an Fi desire to make things work well for everyone).
    I understand your basic argument here and for most of the part I agree. Of course Ni needs Se in order to operate at all, in that Ni and Se are really the same thing, but the ego focus is different.

    What I am not following here is how you understand awareness. How would you define it in this context? I find it rather relevant because you note that without awareness of Se, Ni visions are ungrounded and appear insane. However, another way of understanding it is that one does always reject the input of the inferior since it is what makes it inferior in the first place. The ego focuses its will towards Ni rather than Se. How can I Ni if I also focus on Se and vice versa?

    The way I see things is that synergy occurs whether we like it or not. Functions don't operate in bubbles because in actuality, Te and Fi are really the same thing. Perhaps it is this understanding that causes discord with your description here. Yes, there is information-process moving between the two perspectives but I fail to see how awareness plays a role in this since this process occurs regardless at any given moment when we engage our dominant, especially as you didn't define what separates awareness from ego.

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  8. #58
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    I understand your basic argument here and for most of the part I agree. Of course Ni needs Se in order to operate at all, in that Ni and Se are really the same thing, but the ego focus is different.

    What I am not following here is how you understand awareness. How would you define it in this context? I find it rather relevant because you note that without awareness of Se, Ni visions are ungrounded and appear insane. However, another way of understanding it is that one does always reject the input of the inferior since it is what makes it inferior in the first place. The ego focuses its will towards Ni rather than Se. How can I Ni if I also focus on Se and vice versa?

    The way I see things is that synergy occurs whether we like it or not. Functions don't operate in bubbles because in actuality, Te and Fi are really the same thing. Perhaps it is this understanding that causes discord with your description here. Yes, there is information-process moving between the two perspectives but I fail to see how awareness plays a role in this since this process occurs regardless at any given moment when we engage our dominant, especially as you didn't define what separates awareness from ego.
    Well, of course I agree with you that Te and Fi are "really the same thing". But a more apt analogy is "two sides of the same coin." They're opposite, but you cannot have one without the other. Like the coin, the two sides cannot both be "up." The coin is rarely on its edge, and even when it is, that is a temporary state. For most younger people, the coin lands on heads or tails and just stays there. There is only one side, not two. Any matters regarding the other side aren't merely ignored or disdained, often they are not even comprehended!

    To extend the analogy, the reason the dominant side of the coin "resents" the inferior side is that in order to get to the inferior, you have to flip the coin - you have to make the dominant go away, at least to a degree, or at least for a short while. As you point out, the dominant perspective is the ego's perspective: flipping the coin is an attack on one's ego, and the natural reaction to that flip is to flip it right back, dominant-side-up.

    Awareness, in this analogy, is the understanding that the coin is valuable because it is a coin, not because the dominant side is desirable. To stretch the analogy, in order to be able to "spend" the coin, you have to 1) see it as a coin, and 2) pick it up and expose both sides. Lack of awareness means your ego insists that the coin just sit there, dominant side up; the ego works against the coin's utility.

    This is where the analogy breaks down, because as you rightly note, the coin still "works" even as the ego forces only one side to show, but it works in spite of the ego, not with the ego. Awareness means that the ego acknowledges the whole coin, and while it will always prefer the dominant side to be displayed, it no longer actively rejects the other side, and even encourages the other side from time to time, in an aware, not unconscious, manner.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, of course I agree with you that Te and Fi are "really the same thing". But a more apt analogy is "two sides of the same coin." They're opposite, but you cannot have one without the other. Like the coin, the two sides cannot both be "up." The coin is rarely on its edge, and even when it is, that is a temporary state. For most younger people, the coin lands on heads or tails and just stays there. There is only one side, not two. Any matters regarding the other side aren't merely ignored or disdained, often they are not even comprehended!

    To extend the analogy, the reason the dominant side of the coin "resents" the inferior side is that in order to get to the inferior, you have to flip the coin - you have to make the dominant go away, at least to a degree, or at least for a short while. As you point out, the dominant perspective is the ego's perspective: flipping the coin is an attack on one's ego, and the natural reaction to that flip is to flip it right back, dominant-side-up.
    Yes. I got nothing else to add here. I agree on this.

    Awareness, in this analogy, is the understanding that the coin is valuable because it is a coin, not because the dominant side is desirable. To stretch the analogy, in order to be able to "spend" the coin, you have to 1) see it as a coin, and 2) pick it up and expose both sides. Lack of awareness means your ego insists that the coin just sit there, dominant side up; the ego works against the coin's utility.
    How does this differ from taking on the function as an ego perspective, though?

    This is where the analogy breaks down, because as you rightly note, the coin still "works" even as the ego forces only one side to show, but it works in spite of the ego, not with the ego. Awareness means that the ego acknowledges the whole coin, and while it will always prefer the dominant side to be displayed, it no longer actively rejects the other side, and even encourages the other side from time to time, in an aware, not unconscious, manner.
    How do you see inactive rejection of the inferior and encouragement of the inferior?

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