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View Poll Results: Do INTJs Overdevelop Thinking and Underdevelop Intuition

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  • Yes, please explain

    3 23.08%
  • No, please explain

    10 76.92%
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  1. #41
    Junior Member ummm's Avatar
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    l see the objection that this would just be called an ENTJ but l see what you're saying, also.

    l see a fear of irrationality in INTJs, Ni can be an extremely irrational function that Te may try to make sense of.

    l don't think technically, then Ni can be underdeveloped since it's dominant. But Te could be overly developed in comparison. Which then might result as equal to?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ummm View Post
    l see the objection that this would just be called an ENTJ but l see what you're saying, also.

    l see a fear of irrationality in INTJs, Ni can be an extremely irrational function that Te may try to make sense of.

    l don't think technically, then Ni can be underdeveloped since it's dominant. But Te could be overly developed in comparison. Which then might result as equal to?
    According to Jung, the auxiliary can never become more egoic in position than the dominant since that would suggest there is no dominant function residing within the ego structure, meaning that you are typeless because all the functions are undifferentiated.

    The purpose of Jungian theory is to differentiate your dominant e.g. make it more conscious within your ego, because when you do, you also gain better control of it, which overall makes it more useful to you as a function perspective.

    In contrast, the auxiliary must always be a slave to the dominant because it can never rival the dominant function's position. If it does, then it is not an auxiliary anymore.

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  3. #43
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    According to Jung, the auxiliary can never become more egoic in position than the dominant since that would suggest there is no dominant function residing within the ego structure, meaning that you are typeless because all the functions are undifferentiated.

    The purpose of Jungian theory is to differentiate your dominant e.g. make it more conscious within your ego, because when you do, you also gain better control of it, which overall makes it more useful to you as a function perspective.

    In contrast, the auxiliary must always be a slave to the dominant because it can never rival the dominant function's position. If it does, then it is not an auxiliary anymore.
    It think it's better to say that the auxiliary provides balance with the dominant rather than being a slave to it. Being the slave seems like an unhealthy way to use the auxiliary.

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  4. #44
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't think the question is especially meaningful. I'm sorry, you don't just go, "Hey, I think I'll develop my Te, now," or "I think it's time to work on Fi."
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I do not believe that the question has meaning, because it contains assumptions about how functions are "developed."

    An ENTJ leads with Te; an INTJ leads with Ni. The notion of "overdeveloped" is not applicable in either case. If Te is "overdeveloped" one is an ENTJ. Period. By definition. One is necessarily a Te dom.

    An INTJ might believe that Te is "overdeveloped", but that means nothing, if one essentially is "Ni". If one is an Ni dom, then Ni is in control, because one is Ni. Te is only believed to be "in control", because Te is conscious.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Now, all INTJs tend to emphasize Te to a degree, but that has nothing to do with "overdevelopment" of Te or underdevelopment of intuition. It has to do with the ability to use Te to turn our intuitive grasp of everything into something concrete enough that we can verify our understanding. We don't "overdevelop" Te so much as rely upon Te to allow communication of our more complicated ideas, especially in early years.
    Actually, I think this misses the point I was trying to make. The point isn't that an INTJ would prefer Te over Ni. I am not also suggesting any of this is done consciously. As one matures, the functions tend to develop in order. I've seen this depicted on a timescale, where as a child, the dominant function comes first. In your teens, the auxiliary comes to life. Afterwards, the tertiary develops. It's not linear like that of course, but there is a general progression. Development of a judging function attitude (Te or Fe) is very important for Ni doms in general to operate in the external world effectively and there is external motivation for one to do that.

    People evaluate you based on how you think. I recall one person 10 years ago criticizing me for my "arbitrary" decisions. Others who know me better have said that I "fool people with my smart guesses." The way in which Ni doms arrive at conclusions is obscure to other people. They don't understand it. It is much easier and more accepted to look at the facts, look at has worked before and other such things. An Se dom or aux would tend to suggest that we look at what's going on right in front of our face. An Si dom or aux would tend towards looking at what has happened or worked before. We are influenced by those around us. If a certain way of thinking is understood and accepted then you are encouraged to think that way. If a certain way of thinking is not, then we are discouraged from it. What I'm suggesting is that this outside influence impacts type development, which for example the Step III instrument is designed to help assess. It will be interesting to see what kind of patterns begin to emerge as this instrument is more widely adopted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose it is not so much over/underdevelopment as neglect or over/underemphasis. This is what I described in my last post, when I must tie up most of my mental energy and attention on things that have little to do with Ni. I can imagine that many jobs place a person in just this kind of situation, which would be unpleasant for an Ni-dom.
    Maybe that is a better way of explaining it.

    On a perhaps related note, my "EnnaThought for the day" for a 6 is,

    Be aware that your "characteristic temptation" is to let doubt cloud your own inner knowing. Average to Unhealthy Sixes become increasingly dependent on others or on familiar beliefs and procedures for emotional security. How can you create mental clarity for yourself today? (Understanding the Enneagram, 103)

    How much do I trust those intuitive perceptions? Not always as much as I should.

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  5. #45
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It think it's better to say that the auxiliary provides balance with the dominant rather than being a slave to it. Being the slave seems like an unhealthy way to use the auxiliary.
    No, it is a slave. You don't need an auxiliary function; this is why Jung only posits 8 rather than 16 types. We can all think, feel, sense and intuit, but what makes the function dominant and/or auxiliary is whether it is differentiated in the ego and becomes a part of the ego structure. If the individual does not seem to express any capability of having differentiated any function, then the person is typeless. If the individual has only differentiated one function, then the individual has a type but lacks an auxiliary.

    Differentiation means, in this context, simply an acceptance of the function as an ego perspective. It is when the functions are undifferentiated that they become "mixed" and "messy", because they only really appear as some archaic feeling, thinking, sensation or intuition.

    What you really are describing is when functions are undifferentiated. That's when they can appear to be "balanced". Differentiation is when one starts focusing on one perspective moreso than the other and clearly favors this perspective as one's ego structure.

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  6. #46
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    No, it is a slave. You don't need an auxiliary function; this is why Jung only posits 8 rather than 16 types. We can all think, feel, sense and intuit, but what makes the function dominant and/or auxiliary is whether it is differentiated in the ego and becomes a part of the ego structure. If the individual does not seem to express any capability of having differentiated any function, then the person is typeless. If the individual has only differentiated one function, then the individual has a type but lacks an auxiliary.

    Differentiation means, in this context, simply an acceptance of the function as an ego perspective. It is when the functions are undifferentiated that they become "mixed" and "messy", because they only really appear as some archaic feeling, thinking, sensation or intuition.

    What you really are describing is when functions are undifferentiated. That's when they can appear to be "balanced". Differentiation is when one starts focusing on one perspective moreso than the other and clearly favors this perspective as one's ego structure.
    I would note that "slave" is a loaded word, that will make people tend to disagree with you, even though I believe you are technically correct. It would perhaps be more diplomatic to say that the other functions, properly differentiated, support the lead. When they aren't differentiated, they only support the lead function by accident, both working with and against the lead.

    Properly understood, while raw, undifferentiated inferior Se often frustrates Ni-thinking, properly differentiated Se supports Ni-thinking, as real world experience is essential to refine Ni visions, and allow those visions to be applied in real life, and not just in your head.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I would note that "slave" is a loaded word, that will make people tend to disagree with you, even though I believe you are technically correct. It would perhaps be more diplomatic to say that the other functions, properly differentiated, support the lead. When they aren't differentiated, they only support the lead function by accident, both working with and against the lead.
    I would perhaps even use the word subordinate if I were to look for alternatives.

    Properly understood, while raw, undifferentiated inferior Se often frustrates Ni-thinking, properly differentiated Se supports Ni-thinking, as real world experience is essential to refine Ni visions, and allow those visions to be applied in real life, and not just in your head.
    How do you understand the process of differentiation? I am of the belief that the inferior cannot be differentiated since it would challenge the dominant ego perspective. We can at best differentiate the tertiary but this is uncommon. I think most only have a differentiated dominant function if they are a type at all, in a Jungian sense at least.

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  8. #48
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    How do you understand the process of differentiation? I am of the belief that the inferior cannot be differentiated since it would challenge the dominant ego perspective. We can at best differentiate the tertiary but this is uncommon. I think most only have a differentiated dominant function if they are a type at all, in a Jungian sense at least.
    It depends on what one means by differentiation. I would regard "differentiation" of Fi and Se for INTJs more a matter of self-awareness than anything else. Remember, early on, we tend to dismiss their input outright, unless they demand our attention, at which point we try to find the quickest way to shut them up. If one is aware, then it's possible to figure out how to deal with them in an effective way. The overall decision-making would still be Ni-Te, but it would be Ni-Te strongly informed by Fi-Se.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It depends on what one means by differentiation. I would regard "differentiation" of Fi and Se for INTJs more a matter of self-awareness than anything else. Remember, early on, we tend to dismiss their input outright, unless they demand our attention, at which point we try to find the quickest way to shut them up. If one is aware, then it's possible to figure out how to deal with them in an effective way. The overall decision-making would still be Ni-Te, but it would be Ni-Te strongly informed by Fi-Se.
    I see. So to you, differentiation is not the same as taking on a function's cognitive perspective as a part of one's ego structure. Then what you suggested makes more sense, yes.

    How do you separate the concept of awareness from ego, and why would awareness lead to a more informed or controlled input from the inferior function perspectives?

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  10. #50
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    I see. So to you, differentiation is not the same as taking on a function's cognitive perspective as a part of one's ego structure. Then what you suggested makes more sense, yes.

    How do you separate the concept of awareness from ego, and why would awareness lead to a more informed or controlled input from the inferior function perspectives?
    I'm hard pressed to assign a precise meaning to "taking on a function's cognitive perspective as a part of one's ego structure". While I'm well-versed in the functions and their principles, I usually don't see words like "ego structure". I do believe that the dominant function IS how you think, to the point that it's difficult to see how it affects your thinking, the same way you can't directly see the blind spots in your eyes (where the retina attaches to the nerve).

    The awareness I'm talking about is learning how the other functions jibe with the dominant, inform the dominant.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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