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View Poll Results: Do INTJs Overdevelop Thinking and Underdevelop Intuition

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  • Yes, please explain

    3 23.08%
  • No, please explain

    10 76.92%
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  1. #31
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    @highlander If I may, how did you determine that Ni is the most undervalued function by a longshot? Whilst to me it seems intuitively correct my study of history seems to suggest that ancient peoples admired Ni in its own way whilst Fi and Ti have always occupied a position of indifference or inconvenience and eclipsed by their extroverted function counterparts. In times of relative powerlessness ancient people would look to anyone who could provide them the advantage - seers who could predict the extent which the Nile would fertilise the Egyptian flood plains this year, those who claimed to be able to interpret the stars or read tea leaves to advise the outcome of battles or those who could claim communication with the Gods to determine whether good fortune would come to a people or bad times. Egypt, Persia, Ancient Rome, India all valued such things. Plenty of Ni or Ni wannabes around with impressions of it woven into the fabric of society which was gradually rooted out (Christian church was probably at fault.)

    On the other hand how many Ji-doms through history have been valued or understood? It's usually those in the right place at the right time to have other types adopt their views or publish their views.
    Ni doms represent 3 - 8 % of society collectively. Lets average it at 5.5%
    ENFJs and ENTJs, who place it in the auxiliary represent 4 - 9 % if the populations, Let's average that at 6.5.
    Those numbers make it very underrespented in the population. and special snowflakes are not as much appreciated as people would like to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think all introverted types develop our (by definition) extraverted aux functions more than extraverts develop their introverted aux. We have more incentive to do so just to interact with the world in daily life. The particular utility of Te adds more motivation. I have seen Te described as the "least common denominator" function, in that it deals with external, objectively verifiable facts and evaluations. The comment was meant to be derogatory, suggesting that Te lacks creativity, insight, motivation, in short the richer and more meaningful aspects of human thought. It is often, however, what gets everyone on the same page, operating with the same facts and structure, so they can go on productively developing those higher concepts.

    As an INTJ develops aux Te, it does not take him/her long to appreciate how useful it is not only in evaluating and tweaking Ni(Fi) visions and plans, but also in getting other people to understand and support them. This ability to improve and to communicate leads to greater success in putting plans into action. INTJs may suffer more than other types when our aux is underdeveloped, because of the nature of Ni as Highlander describes above. Add to this how much INTJs value utility and getting things done, and the effectiveness of Te motivates us to develop it even more.
    This is exactly right

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Developing Te is in general a very good thing for INTJs. The idea of overdevelopment implies that there can be too much of a good thing. When this happens, I think it is less from any conscious rejection of Ni, or even individual Ni ideas, as from the simple fact that time spent focusing on A reduces the time focusing on B. For me this happens when I get drawn into the detailed execution of projects, having to bother with schedules and spreadsheets, regulations and paperwork. I start to feel very separated from the higher level concepts, which feels stifiling. It is as if my world has become two-dimensional. As soon as these demands let up and time permits, I have to get back to the bigger picture thinking. Interestingly, a quick way to short circuit this is to do something Se-like, very concrete, physical, and in-the-moment. Exercise, playing music, or handcrafting usually work.
    Yes exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't think the question is especially meaningful. I'm sorry, you don't just go, "Hey, I think I'll develop my Te, now," or "I think it's time to work on Fi."

    We need to remember that the functions are "how you think", and it's remarkably difficult to "think about how you think". Even back when I was still in single-digit ages, I recall "thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking" and noting that it was just an endless recursion. In the end, you don't really understand how you think without a great deal of self awareness or a good strong structure/language upon which one can rely to describe and develop such an understanding.

    One of the things I learned as I investigated the functions is that Ni, for me, really is "how I think." Not just sort of. Not just in an unconscious way. Not just in an "intuitive" way. It's how I synthesize my understanding of the world around me. Te lends a degree of sanity, but no it doesn't even begin to drive my thought process.
    It's different for me. Te takes on a stronger role. It's what people understand. Ni sounds like voodoo for an average person. I am able to communicate those intuitive impressions directly but they don't often make sense to people. THey get confused. With Te You can communicate and they get it. Proclivities with it are helpful to one advancing in work.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The reason I know that Ni is dominant for me is that I don't do "calculations" in my head: I "see" the answer. Where people get confused about Ni is that it is so often associated with "Ah ha!" insights or other intuitive leaps, when for me, there is no "insight", there is no, "Ah ha!", there is no intuitive leap. I simply just keep on looking at the input data and switch out contexts, eventually hitting upon a context that fits everything I've observed, at which point I use that context to leap to new ideas outside the context.
    For me, it works both ways. I get the Ah ha! momements fairly regularly and the intuitive leaps. I also do a lot of context shifting, Ah has! are much more fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Now, all INTJs tend to emphasize Te to a degree, but that has nothing to do with "overdevelopment" of Te or underdevelopment of intuition. It has to do with the ability to use Te to turn our intuitive grasp of everything into something concrete enough that we can verify our understanding. We don't "overdevelop" Te so much as rely upon Te to allow communication of our more complicated ideas, especially in early years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    If they would favor Te over Ni to such a degree they'd be ENTJs, not INTJs.

    As a more general point, I think I mostly get "impressions". They're impressions because they are just that, vibes, feelings, a sense of what is. Often in a vague manner and I dislike when I must consciously untangle it to make sense of it because it requires a lot of effort. I was for having a feeling lately that my image fix could be wrong and there is 3 influence there so I ended up with the feeling that either it's 3w4 or 4w3. No particular logic to it or why that is but just a sense that something simply is this way. In the end I settled on that 4w3 must be more correct because when I tried to picture my tritype as 583 that did not simply make any sense in my mind. There was no real logic to that, it just simply didn't so I decided I'm still properly typed but the wing on my 4 is wrong.
    I do that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    most people I speak to who think they're INTJ's are actually ENTJ's, and most INTJ's I speak to think they're INTP's.

    ENTJ's need to learn to focus on their intuition.
    INTJ's need to realize most of what they say is actually Ni Fi, and need to use Te to observe their own subjectivity.
    I don't know how you come to this conclusion. How are you diagnosing their type? What is your method?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    I wouldn't go as far to say they overdevelop Te and underdevelop Ni. That would make them ENTJs? I think you just see INTJs using Te more than you see them using Ni because Te is external while Ni is internal. That's really the only explanation I can give.
    No, it wouldn't make you an ENTJ. You can overdevelop something you're good at and underdevelop something you're great and and still be better at the area where you're really talented. It's a matter of relative proportion. Also, if you have a different/strange way of thinking - not linear logic as many think it it the only way - you are made to feel stupid. You soon change your approach.

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  2. #32
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I never did.

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  3. #33
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Do you think INTJs overdevelop Te and underdevelop Ni (or something similar to those lines)?
    Please explain your thoughts/reasoning. If you think they do,
    1. why do you think this happens?
    2. what is the impact on the INTJs development as a person? and
    3. how does it effect their lives?
    what qualifies as "over developing"? I would be inclined to think the dominant instinct would be pretty strong by default, so wouldn't it make more sense to develop less preferred functions?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Ni doms represent 3 - 8 % of society collectively. Lets average it at 5.5%
    ENFJs and ENTJs, who place it in the auxiliary represent 4 - 9 % if the populations, Let's average that at 6.5.
    Those numbers make it very underrespented in the population. and special snowflakes are not as much appreciated as people would like to think.
    Underrepresent does not equal undervalue. The key variables are perceived worth and perceived potential of contribution. For example a rare jewel of a pleasant colour will be far more expensive than a common jewel of a similar colour.

    In my above case study Ni-doms would fill a role perfectly which few others could excel in. Nile flood predictions would not be a good role for an Ne user or an S, they need to know what will happen so they can use it to their advantage, no multiple possibilities or descriptions of what happened last time. In the above case increased rarity helps them because TPTB would not be as likely to find someone else to fit their shoes, they could be pretty much invaluable.
    Compare yourselves to SF types - exist in huge quantities yet are dare I say superfluous for the most part to any organisation outside of basic or rank and file positions anybody could do.

  5. #35
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    I agree with this, but I do get "a-ha" moments. They tend to often build up over time and some of them are more obvious than others. It's not so much "a-ha" in that I exactly know the answer and it ends there, but instead it tends to create a lot of other connections in my mind between that which I know but I did not previously see a connection between. I wonder how much that ties into 5 though, since I seek those kinds of revelations as a part of my pathology. I need to figure things out and how they work.
    I should note that when I say there is no "a-ha" for me, I mean more that I don't look at them the same way I used to. I'm no longer "surprised" that I suddenly understand something that I just let simmer in my mind. Why? I let it "simmer" on purpose. When I reach a roadblock on X, I start working on Y instead, confident that I'll figure out X, eventually. I consciously do it this way, because trying to figure out X while I still have the roadblock is a waste of time. I have to "UNlearn" something, but I don't know what I need to unlearn. When I start thinking about Y, that erases most all of the assumptions I may have made while working on X. When I get back to X, I have to rebuild the context, and having rebuilt it, the odds are that I rebuild it "correctly" this time, at which point the solution is obvious.

    When I was younger, I was surprised when this happened. Why do I suddenly understand something that was unclear before? The answer is simple: I was thinking about it wrong, before, without knowing what aspect of my thinking was wrong, and upon starting with a fresh slate, I intuitively build the parts of the context I was sure about last time, and the parts I got wrong get filled in along the way.

    I believe this kind of conscious focus-then-unfocus approach lets me use my intuitive mind in a more efficient and productive way.
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  6. #36
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    What is the difference between an ENTJ and an INTJ with overdeveloped Te and underdeveloped Ni?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  7. #37
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What is the difference between an ENTJ and an INTJ with overdeveloped Te and underdeveloped Ni?
    I do not believe that the question has meaning, because it contains assumptions about how functions are "developed."

    An ENTJ leads with Te; an INTJ leads with Ni. The notion of "overdeveloped" is not applicable in either case. If Te is "overdeveloped" one is an ENTJ. Period. By definition. One is necessarily a Te dom.

    An INTJ might believe that Te is "overdeveloped", but that means nothing, if one essentially is "Ni". If one is an Ni dom, then Ni is in control, because one is Ni. Te is only believed to be "in control", because Te is conscious.

    This is, of course, my opinion. I'm not trying to prove a point, just saying what I believe, in terms of dominant functions and Ni and Te, and how ENTJs and INTJs perceive themselves.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #38
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I do not believe that the question has meaning, because it contains assumptions about how functions are "developed."

    An ENTJ leads with Te; an INTJ leads with Ni. The notion of "overdeveloped" is not applicable in either case. If Te is "overdeveloped" one is an ENTJ. Period. By definition. One is necessarily a Te dom.

    An INTJ might believe that Te is "overdeveloped", but that means nothing, if one essentially is "Ni". If one is an Ni dom, then Ni is in control, because one is Ni. Te is only believed to be "in control", because Te is conscious.

    This is, of course, my opinion. I'm not trying to prove a point, just saying what I believe, in terms of dominant functions and Ni and Te, and how ENTJs and INTJs perceive themselves.
    This is how I have been thinking about it, and was just curious if someone could say something convincing to make a distinction.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #39
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I should note that when I say there is no "a-ha" for me, I mean more that I don't look at them the same way I used to. I'm no longer "surprised" that I suddenly understand something that I just let simmer in my mind. Why? I let it "simmer" on purpose. When I reach a roadblock on X, I start working on Y instead, confident that I'll figure out X, eventually. I consciously do it this way, because trying to figure out X while I still have the roadblock is a waste of time. I have to "UNlearn" something, but I don't know what I need to unlearn. When I start thinking about Y, that erases most all of the assumptions I may have made while working on X. When I get back to X, I have to rebuild the context, and having rebuilt it, the odds are that I rebuild it "correctly" this time, at which point the solution is obvious.

    When I was younger, I was surprised when this happened. Why do I suddenly understand something that was unclear before? The answer is simple: I was thinking about it wrong, before, without knowing what aspect of my thinking was wrong, and upon starting with a fresh slate, I intuitively build the parts of the context I was sure about last time, and the parts I got wrong get filled in along the way.

    I believe this kind of conscious focus-then-unfocus approach lets me use my intuitive mind in a more efficient and productive way.
    I understand your process perfectly well and I agree that it's somewhat false to claim them to be "a-ha" moments per se in that you overly focus on the sense of "a-ha". Rather, what I do tend to focus on are all the new connections I can suddenly see. It is more the intensity of connections themselves that define the experience rather than realizing something I did not know before. This obviously happens to all people.

    I tend to, just like you, get away from a problem I cannot consciously solve if I see no solution or no way to approach the problem at the time. Usually I am not even sure I engage with content this actively for most of the part. It tends to mostly be that I take in a lot of content and it just mulls in the back of my head over time and as I keep engaging other kinds of content this experience also keeps building. Then one day I just simply "know". Sometimes I can backtrack the process, sometimes I don't. It really depends on how far the process has been going on. The process that I was Ni-dominant took several months and it's therefore difficult to point to every instance that made me realize this. The process that I was transgendered took me my entire life to realize, pretty much.

    Usually, I think what does happen is that there is a specific turning point, like finding the last missing puzzle piece that makes it all kind of click. When I realized I was Ni-dominant what really made me realize this was that I identified with Viktor Gulenko's cognitive style called dialectic-algorithmic that is associated with the INTJ and how I also realized that it properly identified and explained my thinking pattern very well. It was the last puzzle piece that made it click to me, even though there had been a lot of pieces already laid out to me along the way and when I go back and think of these moments I realize how obvious this is. One example being that I related more to Lenore Thomson's Ni over Ne description but being the stupid fuck I am, I was denying it, just like I've been denying me being transgender and gay for the past 25 years.

    So yes, thinking about a problem the wrong way, or perhaps thinking you understand or know the problem when you really don't, because you don't know all the details to provide a wholly accurate picture. Essentially, I guess, at least for me personally, it's akin to look at an object that appears to be triangular. You see two sides, forming a V-shape so you simply assume that there is one more side connecting the two sides on the back that you cannot see. Ni is really about figuring out whether there is only one side or many sides based on the visual cues that are being given to you. You are clearly not allowed to rotate the object.

    Ni then, would be akin to realizing that the object is not triangular but for instance cubic, or perhaps even more oddly shaped than this. I think for INTJs specifically, they would be more occupied focusing on the measurements, distances, shapes and so on of the actual object. I have no clue how INFJs rationally reason because of the differences in Fe-Ti so I won't even try. It's a largely foreign perspective to me despite shared Ni dominance.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It has not historically been appreciated or valued by society.
    "Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics

    So, wat...

    I'm fairly sure it's only recently, over the past hundred years or so, has Se has gained the appreciation it rightfully deserves.

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