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View Poll Results: Do INTJs Overdevelop Thinking and Underdevelop Intuition

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  • Yes, please explain

    3 23.08%
  • No, please explain

    10 76.92%
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  1. #21
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    If they would favor Te over Ni to such a degree they'd be ENTJs, not INTJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't think the question is especially meaningful. I'm sorry, you don't just go, "Hey, I think I'll develop my Te, now," or "I think it's time to work on Fi."

    We need to remember that the functions are "how you think", and it's remarkably difficult to "think about how you think". Even back when I was still in single-digit ages, I recall "thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking" and noting that it was just an endless recursion. In the end, you don't really understand how you think without a great deal of self awareness or a good strong structure/language upon which one can rely to describe and develop such an understanding.

    One of the things I learned as I investigated the functions is that Ni, for me, really is "how I think." Not just sort of. Not just in an unconscious way. Not just in an "intuitive" way. It's how I synthesize my understanding of the world around me. Te lends a degree of sanity, but no it doesn't even begin to drive my thought process.

    I can look back on my life, before I did school, in preschool and kindergarten, in elementary and middle school, in high school, in college and graduate school, I was always using Ni. There was no way I could emphasize Te to a degree greater than I used Ni. When I pay attention to how I learned, how I developed understanding, it was always via Ni. Te was always secondary, providing a means of support, verifying that my Ni-understanding reflected reality, enabling me to communicate my Ni-vision to those who regard my intuitions as surprising and inobvious.

    The reason I know that Ni is dominant for me is that I don't do "calculations" in my head: I "see" the answer. Where people get confused about Ni is that it is so often associated with "Ah ha!" insights or other intuitive leaps, when for me, there is no "insight", there is no, "Ah ha!", there is no intuitive leap. I simply just keep on looking at the input data and switch out contexts, eventually hitting upon a context that fits everything I've observed, at which point I use that context to leap to new ideas outside the context.

    Now, all INTJs tend to emphasize Te to a degree, but that has nothing to do with "overdevelopment" of Te or underdevelopment of intuition. It has to do with the ability to use Te to turn our intuitive grasp of everything into something concrete enough that we can verify our understanding. We don't "overdevelop" Te so much as rely upon Te to allow communication of our more complicated ideas, especially in early years.

    These days, I incorporate Fi ad Se, because Ni and Te alone leave a bunch of ideas and understandings unaddressed. Ni-Te needs a conclusion. Fi-Se simply needs to understand what IS and eventually perhaps develop a values-based understanding of the world.
    I agree with this, but I do get "a-ha" moments. They tend to often build up over time and some of them are more obvious than others. It's not so much "a-ha" in that I exactly know the answer and it ends there, but instead it tends to create a lot of other connections in my mind between that which I know but I did not previously see a connection between. I wonder how much that ties into 5 though, since I seek those kinds of revelations as a part of my pathology. I need to figure things out and how they work.

    As a more general point, I think I mostly get "impressions". They're impressions because they are just that, vibes, feelings, a sense of what is. Often in a vague manner and I dislike when I must consciously untangle it to make sense of it because it requires a lot of effort. I was for having a feeling lately that my image fix could be wrong and there is 3 influence there so I ended up with the feeling that either it's 3w4 or 4w3. No particular logic to it or why that is but just a sense that something simply is this way. In the end I settled on that 4w3 must be more correct because when I tried to picture my tritype as 583 that did not simply make any sense in my mind. There was no real logic to that, it just simply didn't so I decided I'm still properly typed but the wing on my 4 is wrong.

    I do have a fairly strong and developed Te as an egoic perspective but at the end of the day, no, Te is not what makes my world spin around. It's not like I think, "Let's Te now", that doesn't work. The only function we would ever have such conscious control over would be the dominant in the first place. I can indeed go, "I want to analyze the meaning of this", but that's as far as I'll go. Categorical distinctions happen and I can refer to outside sources but if I have to choose between that and my own meaning and understanding of things, I know what I'll prefer and it's not Te.

    Te helps to make sense of things, especially to others, but that's about it. This is why my writing and thinking process was so garbled when I was a teenager and why so few apparently seeemd to understand what I was trying to convey or where I was coming from. I was once trying to explain how I calculate arithmetics in high school and my teacher (and apparently no other of the other students) actually understood what I was talking about or how I performed the reasoning the way I did it. So if I were to calculate what 43 + 76 is, I'd do it like this: 40 + 70 = 110 + 3 = 9 110 + 9 = 119. I'll be curious to see how many can make sense of that now. To me that is so stupid-obvious.

    As for Fi and Se, I won't even comment on that. I was consciously trying to make value judgements the other day and it just didn't work. Maybe it has to do with my age, but both Se and Fi are clearly unconscious and for now I don't care if they are that way or not. If I Fi or Se it happens, and that's all there is to it.

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  2. #22
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't think the question is especially meaningful. I'm sorry, you don't just go, "Hey, I think I'll develop my Te, now," or "I think it's time to work on Fi."

    We need to remember that the functions are "how you think", and it's remarkably difficult to "think about how you think". Even back when I was still in single-digit ages, I recall "thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking" and noting that it was just an endless recursion. In the end, you don't really understand how you think without a great deal of self awareness or a good strong structure/language upon which one can rely to describe and develop such an understanding.

    One of the things I learned as I investigated the functions is that Ni, for me, really is "how I think." Not just sort of. Not just in an unconscious way. Not just in an "intuitive" way. It's how I synthesize my understanding of the world around me. Te lends a degree of sanity, but no it doesn't even begin to drive my thought process.

    I can look back on my life, before I did school, in preschool and kindergarten, in elementary and middle school, in high school, in college and graduate school, I was always using Ni. There was no way I could emphasize Te to a degree greater than I used Ni. When I pay attention to how I learned, how I developed understanding, it was always via Ni. Te was always secondary, providing a means of support, verifying that my Ni-understanding reflected reality, enabling me to communicate my Ni-vision to those who regard my intuitions as surprising and inobvious.
    In speaking about "developing Te" we are certainly using the benefit of hindsight, in that MB types and jungian functions gives us a structure or language to describe certain aspects of maturing and learning. When I look back on my life, I clearly remember a time when I was maybe 10-12 when I learned to organize, evaluate, and successfully communicate all the thoughts in my head to another person, on the "outside". I remember how difficult this was at first, until I got used to the questions I had to ask, the structures that proved most effective, etc. I was helped greatly by a family friend, more like an extra uncle, who would discuss all sorts of topics with me like history, politics, economics, etc. and question me until I could present and defend my thoughts in a logical and coherent manner. I remember thinking "I have to think about my thoughts THIS way??!!". But once I got the hang of it, and saw how effective it was, I was hooked and never looked back.

    So yes, we develop Te, perhaps unintentionally, even unknowingly, but it is part of how we learn to navigate the world effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Now, all INTJs tend to emphasize Te to a degree, but that has nothing to do with "overdevelopment" of Te or underdevelopment of intuition. It has to do with the ability to use Te to turn our intuitive grasp of everything into something concrete enough that we can verify our understanding. We don't "overdevelop" Te so much as rely upon Te to allow communication of our more complicated ideas, especially in early years.
    I suppose it is not so much over/underdevelopment as neglect or over/underemphasis. This is what I described in my last post, when I must tie up most of my mental energy and attention on things that have little to do with Ni. I can imagine that many jobs place a person in just this kind of situation, which would be unpleasant for an Ni-dom.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The reason I know that Ni is dominant for me is that I don't do "calculations" in my head: I "see" the answer.
    That was very interesting a point as it reminded me of something I discovered about myself lately.

    I have always trusted my intuition when it comes to something I know I am good at. That would be my hobbies and my profession.

    I have for a very long time felt myself somehow awkward in social situations yet I never have really had problems dealing with people. I have had this strange feeling that no matter how hard I try and how much I think I learn, I will still always feel some sort of incompetence in being with people, coming up with thoughts that I could and should have done better inconveniently often. It has been as if questioning my ability to learn that one specific area of life.

    That was until something happened in my life lately. Something that I am not going to get in here and now made me realize that I had not been trusting my intuition when it comes to being with people. I had had a lot of some sort of ideas that now seem to have been mostly right but I had been thinking too much and, as it seems to me now, trying to calculate when I should have just trusted my intuition. As soon as I realized that and actually let myself go, really trusting the Ni in whatever I was doing, I saw an astounishingly fast change in me. All of those problems seemed to have vanished right away as if they had never existed.
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  4. #24
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    most people I speak to who think they're INTJ's are actually ENTJ's, and most INTJ's I speak to think they're INTP's.

    ENTJ's need to learn to focus on their intuition.
    INTJ's need to realize most of what they say is actually Ni Fi, and need to use Te to observe their own subjectivity.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In speaking about "developing Te" we are certainly using the benefit of hindsight, in that MB types and jungian functions gives us a structure or language to describe certain aspects of maturing and learning. When I look back on my life, I clearly remember a time when I was maybe 10-12 when I learned to organize, evaluate, and successfully communicate all the thoughts in my head to another person, on the "outside". I remember how difficult this was at first, until I got used to the questions I had to ask, the structures that proved most effective, etc. I was helped greatly by a family friend, more like an extra uncle, who would discuss all sorts of topics with me like history, politics, economics, etc. and question me until I could present and defend my thoughts in a logical and coherent manner. I remember thinking "I have to think about my thoughts THIS way??!!". But once I got the hang of it, and saw how effective it was, I was hooked and never looked back.

    So yes, we develop Te, perhaps unintentionally, even unknowingly, but it is part of how we learn to navigate the world effectively.
    You cannot develop Te per se as a function perspective. You cannot. What you can do is to differentiate it into your ego meaning thinking as a function perspective is accepted into the ego as an egoic function, but this is very different from the idea of developing Te as a function perspective. If Te is auxiliary it will always be a slave to Ni.

    I suppose it is not so much over/underdevelopment as neglect or over/underemphasis. This is what I described in my last post, when I must tie up most of my mental energy and attention on things that have little to do with Ni. I can imagine that many jobs place a person in just this kind of situation, which would be unpleasant for an Ni-dom.
    Ni will always be the dominant ego perspective and Ni will always attract the most psychic energy. If I cannot Ni I automatically feel extremely drained or like a fish out of water. If Ni is not the function perspective that gets the most energy you aren't an Ni dom.

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  6. #26
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    I wouldn't go as far to say they overdevelop Te and underdevelop Ni. That would make them ENTJs? I think you just see INTJs using Te more than you see them using Ni because Te is external while Ni is internal. That's really the only explanation I can give.
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  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Te helps to make sense of things, especially to others, but that's about it. This is why my writing and thinking process was so garbled when I was a teenager and why so few apparently seeemd to understand what I was trying to convey or where I was coming from. I was once trying to explain how I calculate arithmetics in high school and my teacher (and apparently no other of the other students) actually understood what I was talking about or how I performed the reasoning the way I did it. So if I were to calculate what 43 + 76 is, I'd do it like this: 40 + 70 = 110 + 3 = 9 110 + 9 = 119. I'll be curious to see how many can make sense of that now. To me that is so stupid-obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    You cannot develop Te per se as a function perspective. You cannot. What you can do is to differentiate it into your ego meaning thinking as a function perspective is accepted into the ego as an egoic function, but this is very different from the idea of developing Te as a function perspective. If Te is auxiliary it will always be a slave to Ni.
    A distinction of semantics. Whether we describe it as developing a function, or differentiating it, we accomplish it by learning to do things like what you describe in the first quote above. Yes, Te helps make sense of things, especially to others. There is more to it than that, but even if not, that is huge, especially for people who are as internally focused as INTJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Ni will always be the dominant ego perspective and Ni will always attract the most psychic energy. If I cannot Ni I automatically feel extremely drained or like a fish out of water. If Ni is not the function perspective that gets the most energy you aren't an Ni dom.
    Not necessarily. Anyone can be put in situations where their preferred functions don't work well and they are pushed into using others. To some degree this is beneficial, in drawing us outside our comfort zones so we can develop or differentiate those other functions. Done to excess, however, it has exactly the result you describe as draining/fish-out-of-water, and I described as stifiling, turning my world two-dimensional. It doesn't make us ENTJs, just stressed and unhappy INTJs.

    Moreover, as I have written many times before, none of us use any of our functions in a vacuum. We don't use Ni or Te, we use Ni and Te (and Fi and Se), together, all the time; just not in anywhere near equal proportions, or with equivalent comfort and facility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    I wouldn't go as far to say they overdevelop Te and underdevelop Ni. That would make them ENTJs? I think you just see INTJs using Te more than you see them using Ni because Te is external while Ni is internal. That's really the only explanation I can give.
    This is an accurate and relevant observation. The aux function will be more apparent in all introverts, due to its extraverted nature. INTJs can thus appear ENTJ-like, but it is not the inherent and most natural "us".
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #28
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    I wouldn't go as far to say they overdevelop Te and underdevelop Ni. That would make them ENTJs? I think you just see INTJs using Te more than you see them using Ni because Te is external while Ni is internal. That's really the only explanation I can give.
    I don't think that's not true. Even if you study my cognition and I rely heavily on Te, I will always favor my Ni model over Te any day of the week. So it's not even a matter of something looking like something else but rather whether people know where to look at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    A distinction of semantics. Whether we describe it as developing a function, or differentiating it, we accomplish it by learning to do things like what you describe in the first quote above. Yes, Te helps make sense of things, especially to others. There is more to it than that, but even if not, that is huge, especially for people who are as internally focused as INTJs.
    Not at all. Development suggests something different, that something can improve or become better.

    Not necessarily. Anyone can be put in situations where their preferred functions don't work well and they are pushed into using others. To some degree this is beneficial, in drawing us outside our comfort zones so we can develop or differentiate those other functions. Done to excess, however, it has exactly the result you describe as draining/fish-out-of-water, and I described as stifiling, turning my world two-dimensional. It doesn't make us ENTJs, just stressed and unhappy INTJs.
    But why would you rely on a perspective you don't favor over a perspective that you favor? Also, I don't think it's beneficial at all. It is usually painful for people to leave their cognitive preferences. Socionics is pretty clear on that while one can accept the inferior it is better to stick to your ego functions because those are the ones you're the most adept at.

    Moreover, as I have written many times before, none of us use any of our functions in a vacuum. We don't use Ni or Te, we use Ni and Te (and Fi and Se), together, all the time; just not in anywhere near equal proportions, or with equivalent comfort and facility.
    More accurately, we use Ni-Se. Te-Fi is more secondary if used at all. You don't have to prefer a Te perspective.

    This is an accurate and relevant observation. The aux function will be more apparent in all introverts, due to its extraverted nature. INTJs can thus appear ENTJ-like, but it is not the inherent and most natural "us".
    I disagree. An introvert is easily spotted by looking at where your cognition is headed.

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Do you think INTJs overdevelop Te and underdevelop Ni (or something similar to those lines)?

    Please explain your thoughts/reasoning. If you think they do,
    1. why do you think this happens?
    2. what is the impact on the INTJs development as a person? and
    3. how does it effect their lives?
    I cant explain in terms of Te and Ni because to be honest I havent any idea whatsoever about those things. I couldn't be bothered getting into MBTI to that degree. Just did the test and got my type, lost all interest after that.

    Sooo...anyway. All i know is that I base 90% or more of my decisions on gut instinct and use my rationale to justify them later. My thinking is used mainly for research to validate, or invalidate decisions I have already arrived at by gut feel. I wont necessarily act on those decisions until research is performed but my decision rarely changes in any case. Contrary to all appearances of me being a meticulous planner and strategiser, I am actually a reckless fly by the seat of my pants kind of individual who manages to project some sense of orderliness to others. Which comes in handy when you want to stand in judgement of other people who do exactly the same as you with less semblance of thoughtfulness about it.

  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Not at all. Development suggests something different, that something can improve or become better.
    I consider learning new skills, or learning to communicate better to be forms of improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    But why would you rely on a perspective you don't favor over a perspective that you favor? Also, I don't think it's beneficial at all. It is usually painful for people to leave their cognitive preferences. Socionics is pretty clear on that while one can accept the inferior it is better to stick to your ego functions because those are the ones you're the most adept at.
    It can be painful to go beyond one's cognitive preferences. Growth often is painful, but if we stay in our comfort zone, we will stagnate. Yes, we will always rely most on our preferred and strongest functions, but sometimes they are not the right ones for the job. I don't so much rely on the less preferred function, as call upon it to meet a specific need. Every time I do this, it becomes a bit more familar and comfortable, though will never take the place of my more preferred functions. It is a bit like learning a foreign language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    More accurately, we use Ni-Se. Te-Fi is more secondary if used at all. You don't have to prefer a Te perspective.
    I disagree with this weighting, for myself, and for the other INTJs I know. Yes, Se balances Ni to some degree, but Te is how we interact with the world and make our internal thoughts external. Unless we are hermits, we engage this quite a bit, and for those I know it is a strong and useful aux function. Fi effects are also quite evident, though less obvious, acknowledged, or understood. Type is not about what we "have to do", it is about simply what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    I disagree. An introvert is easily spotted by looking at where your cognition is headed.
    This is not a disagreement, just a parallel observation.
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