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  1. #41
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherezade View Post
    @zago don`t you think you are somewhat projecting some of your personal feelings into the concept? it would sure seem so to me, i personally think that i need meditation in order to obtain insight, a better knowledge of myself that i lack at the moment, from what i`ve read about it, is very true(and proven by monks) that you can train your mind by use of meditation. What did meditation mean to you, i m curious again, since you seem to have such strong feelings against it
    As a zazen meditator you are supposed to sit there and let your mind be blank. As thoughts come up, you let them go once you realize it. To make a long story short, there is a fatal and well known flaw in this, and that is, you'll find yourself sitting there thinking about how well you're doing at not thinking. Secondly, and equally relevant, one of the premises of zen is that all is as it should be. If that is true, then you can't help but have to ask yourself--why, exactly, am I sitting here trying to practice something then?

    Indeed, the goal of meditation is to allow your mind to be in a constant state of anarchy. Your ego tries to filter your experience. When you let that filter fall away, there is freedom and expanse, but you will no longer be able to see yourself as a good person (cutting to the point a bit). You'll recognize your shadow side, the thoughts that you had always kept locked in the basement of your mind out of sheer denial that you could possibly think up such violence and hatred.

    This is why people have to spend like 10 or 20 years (I have heard up to 40, and some people probably never) sitting there in meditation - because meditation IS controlling your experience. It has to be. You do it. You must have intention. Progress happens much more quickly if you just start right now and allow your mind to express itself as it wants to. Instead of sacrificing for the future, do what you actually want to do right now. Do what resonates. You'll get to know yourself way faster. You'll run into a lot of walls. It will be tumultuous. In learning to walk, one must fall many times. This is not about mental control. This is about no mental control. You'll think you're losing your sanity. It's ok, you probably aren't.

    Then again, if you just want to be a little more relaxed and crap, do some simple concentration meditation or something. Like I said, it is relaxing. It's not for me, though.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Scheherezade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    As a zazen meditator you are supposed to sit there and let your mind be blank. As thoughts come up, you let them go once you realize it. To make a long story short, there is a fatal and well known flaw in this, and that is, you'll find yourself sitting there thinking about how well you're doing at not thinking. Secondly, and equally relevant, one of the premises of zen is that all is as it should be. If that is true, then you can't help but have to ask yourself--why, exactly, am I sitting here trying to practice something then?

    Indeed, the goal of meditation is to allow your mind to be in a constant state of anarchy. Your ego tries to filter your experience. When you let that filter fall away, there is freedom and expanse, but you will no longer be able to see yourself as a good person (cutting to the point a bit). You'll recognize your shadow side, the thoughts that you had always kept locked in the basement of your mind out of sheer denial that you could possibly think up such violence and hatred.

    This is why people have to spend like 10 or 20 years (I have heard up to 40, and some people probably never) sitting there in meditation - because meditation IS controlling your experience. It has to be. You do it. You must have intention. Progress happens much more quickly if you just start right now and allow your mind to express itself as it wants to. Instead of sacrificing for the future, do what you actually want to do right now. Do what resonates. You'll get to know yourself way faster. You'll run into a lot of walls. It will be tumultuous. In learning to walk, one must fall many times. This is not about mental control. This is about no mental control. You'll think you're losing your sanity. It's ok, you probably aren't.

    Then again, if you just want to be a little more relaxed and crap, do some simple concentration meditation or something. Like I said, it is relaxing. It's not for me, though.
    hmm.. so you are saying that the insight that meditation provides might not be what i wish for? did i understand correctly?
    from my pov at this point it seems that it s simply a matter of perspective on how you will "see yourself",
    also i don`t understand what you mean by
    the goal of meditation is to allow your mind to be in a constant state of anarchy
    ?
    i don `t find anarchy in serenity and insight, on the contrary..

  3. #43
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherezade View Post
    hmm.. so you are saying that the insight that meditation provides might not be what i wish for? did i understand correctly?
    from my pov at this point it seems that it s simply a matter of perspective on how you will "see yourself",
    Yeah, I could possibly agree with these statements.

    also i don`t understand what you mean by
    ?
    i don `t find anarchy in serenity and insight, on the contrary..
    Anarchy as in... you won't be able to convince yourself of anything. No 1 thought will ever gain traction in your mind anymore and give you something to hold onto or a direction to move in. You won't believe in your thoughts.

  4. #44
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I go to Kundalini yoga here in Seattle, and they often have a gong meditation afterwards.

  5. #45
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    The problem with prescribing a 'correct' method for anything is that no one is correct.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #46
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    . Progress happens much more quickly if you just start right now and allow your mind to express itself as it wants to.
    The thing is, meditation appeals to me is because I find I have difficulty with my mind expressing itself as it wants to. Meditation seems to help me with that, provided that all my other physical needs are meet. Without mediation, my mind is restless and constantly unsatisfied. Meditation helps my mind rest so I can use it better. I become conscious, not automatic.

    Without mediation, it's like my mind is always seeking something, and because it's so intent on seeking something, it never finds anything.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #47
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The thing is, meditation appeals to me is because I find I have difficulty with my mind expressing itself as it wants to. Meditation seems to help me with that, provided that all my other physical needs are meet. Without mediation, my mind is restless and constantly unsatisfied. Meditation helps my mind rest so I can use it better. I become conscious, not automatic.

    Without mediation, it's like my mind is always seeking something, and because it's so intent on seeking something, it never finds anything.
    Then meditate, it's perfect. I honestly agree.

  8. #48
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Yes but it's unintentional. My mind tends to fall into a certain state when doing activities that require repetitive motion like folding clothes or braiding hair. It's very mild and easily left behind.

    Much more intense states would occur when I used to spin yarn, draw, or even connecting chain maille links. Time stops, words and "thinking" fade. It's almost like the now existing forever. Me and the task I was doing. I don't do any of those things anymore so I guess the answer is really no. I don't think these things qualify as meditation but the experience is similar to what others describe.

  9. #49
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I like to sit.

  10. #50
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    I just zone out the outer world until my inner world takes form and takes over. Focusing on breathing is the easiest way for me. I spend upwards of 2-3hrs per day in meditation. Its my preferred mode of relaxation. I enjoy not being present in the physical world as much as possible, and have been practising that since I was a child so its second nature now. My inner world tends to appear as a movie scape where my thoughts play out, just like dreaming. In contrast the outer world feels heavy and annoying to me, i would love it if I was paid to meditate.

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