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  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    INTPs have an interesting relationship to control because for the most part I've noticed the type doesn't desire to control or be controlled. If the need for autonomy is especially strong, it can result in some forms of control that can be unconscious because of requiring behaviors to accommodate those specific needs. I think the unconscious control in MBTI terms comes from the Si-Fe which can have very specific needs in relationship to the concrete world and socially. It isn't consistent, and I'm not suggesting it applies to all INTPs, nor is it intended as a criticism. It is just interesting because the type can by nature be one of the least controlling overall, but there can be unexpected pockets of control that creep in - sometimes without awareness.

    Edit: I think this is the result of the tension between a need for autonomy and the fact that humans evolved as interdependent groups. Some degree of autonomy is realistic, but at some point it can become an illusion that actually requires something from the group to maintain. I am just suggesting a certain tension that results from the inner and outer worlds that can require the exertion of control to maintain. I'm not certain that makes sense, so I'll try to come back and articulate it better.

    This might help: In order to be consistently non-controlling socially, one must possess a great deal of personal adaptability as well as some measure of autonomy. If there is a lack of adaptability, then there will likely result some need for control over others, at least in those instances where the two must interact and negotiate needs. This can include fleeting, incidental interactions or with deeper social connections.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  2. #12
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    INTPs have an interesting relationship to control because for the most part I've noticed the type doesn't desire to control or be controlled. If the need for autonomy is especially strong, it can result in some forms of control that can be unconscious because of requiring behaviors to accommodate those specific needs. I think the unconscious control in MBTI terms comes from the Si-Fe which can have very specific needs in relationship to the concrete world and socially. It isn't consistent, and I'm not suggesting it applies to all INTPs, nor is it intended as a criticism. It is just interesting because the type can by nature be one of the least controlling overall, but there can be unexpected pockets of control that creep in - sometimes without awareness.

    Edit: I think this is the result of the tension between a need for autonomy and the fact that humans evolved as interdependent groups. Some degree of autonomy is realistic, but at some point it can become an illusion that actually requires something from the group to maintain. I am just suggesting a certain tension that results from the inner and outer worlds that can require the exertion of control to maintain. I'm not certain that makes sense, so I'll try to come back and articulate it better.

    This might help: In order to be consistently non-controlling socially, one must possess a great deal of personal adaptability as well as some measure of autonomy. If there is a lack of adaptability, then there will likely result some need for control over others, at least in those instances where the two must interact and negotiate needs. This can include fleeting, incidental interactions or with deeper social connections.
    ^ I can fully support that, its about the same I see in intps. I tho could have never phrased it that eloquently.

    As with all things you can follow the thesis that someone who deals with feigning off a certain evil in his life, he will automatically become part of that evil himself cause he gets it to know. I am a person who rebels against authority when and where he can; on the other hand tho I can be a controlling tyran. When someone showed me that and I noticed it, it was quite the shocker but it follows the simple logic that the black and white of every situation always come in a unity even if you'd only focus on the black or white alone.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #13
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Not a fan, naturally. But as someone who has to "tell people what to do" at work it can be difficult balancing that desire to grant the same autonomy to individuals I want while also having the cynical view that most people are idiots who will hang themselves with every inch of the Autonomy Rope you give them.

    I have a sort of a counterphobic reaction to being coerced, which in a way is a bit like being controlled itself. "Yeah, because I have to, I don't want to."




  4. #14
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    My SO is an INTP who's a manager. It's pretty much in name only since his department is full of independent and very intelligent individuals. His style of management is to leave everyone alone where they approach him when they need assistance. Luckily, his departmental performance numbers are so good, that he doesn't have to 'manage' anyone.

  5. #15
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think the unconscious control in MBTI terms comes from the Si-Fe which can have very specific needs in relationship to the concrete world and socially. It isn't consistent, and I'm not suggesting it applies to all INTPs, nor is it intended as a criticism. It is just interesting because the type can by nature be one of the least controlling overall, but there can be unexpected pockets of control that creep in - sometimes without awareness.
    I think you stumbled into the money maker on this one. Inferior functions are typically unconscious, under developed, and beyond our control-- so in a sense, we're all a slave to them. INTPs can't control their extroverted feeling, which as a judging function, forces us to make a number of very specific decisions based on how we feel about things (for as well all well know, any penchant for control is rooted in a lack thereof). Such a problem is this, that it could very well be the reason we go so far out of our way to 'leave things open,' and 'postpone plans for the last minute,' because we never know what our Fe is going to want to do unless we're talking about the present. This slavery to our own impulses, I think, is where INTPs get their 'controlishness,' and a significant part of what can often be attributed to autonomy.

    Personally I don't like to control others. I feel as though I'm robbing them of precious lessons learned through trial and error. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," was never advice-- it was just a simple statement of fact on how we blindly treat one another, IMO.

  6. #16
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    INTPs have an interesting relationship to control because for the most part I've noticed the type doesn't desire to control or be controlled. If the need for autonomy is especially strong, it can result in some forms of control that can be unconscious because of requiring behaviors to accommodate those specific needs. I think the unconscious control in MBTI terms comes from the Si-Fe which can have very specific needs in relationship to the concrete world and socially. It isn't consistent, and I'm not suggesting it applies to all INTPs, nor is it intended as a criticism. It is just interesting because the type can by nature be one of the least controlling overall, but there can be unexpected pockets of control that creep in - sometimes without awareness.
    Can you provide examples of what you're specifically talking about? I think I know, but I'm not certain. And I think there are a number of ways of looking at the issue.

    I remember advising someone who was struggling in a relationship with an INTP who insisted that there be no expectations in their relationship (something I've been guilty of myself) and I told her to tell him that demanding no expectations IS an expectation. So he was being both inconsistent and unfair. Pointing out such inconsistencies is often a good way of negotiating with an INTP.

    There are many ways of controlling others (e.g via aggressive coercion or the more subtle methods -often employed by F types - of appealing to ego, guilt-tripping or emotional blackmail); common to all is intentionality. In such cases, there is a desire to alter the behaviour of an external party, perhaps against their will or own interests. Of course, any type can be guilty of this, but there is a deep aversion to such behaviour which seems to be inherent in INTPs, because we treasure autonomy - both for self and others. This is a direct result of being Ti-Dom, rather than a Si/Fe inferior issue.

    The latter can appear, however, in the hypersensitivity to being controlled by others, which can lead INTPs to take extreme counter-measures, which might feel controlling. They rarely have any interest in controlling others though, i.e. that isn't a driver of behaviour. The driver is almost always about maintaining autonomy. If I set up a roadblock on my private road, you could argue that I am curtailing your freedom, but only insofar as it infringes on my right to privacy and security, which rights I also extend to you. Respecting the integrity of the individual is paramount.

    The chief INTP method of maintaining control (over their autonomy) is generally passive resistance. The inflexible INTP is the proverbial unmovable object. Again, controlling others is not the motivating force - but it can be an unintentional side effect. I think power imbalances arise in relationships with INTPs because we are not as interdependent as other types, and the more dependent party is likely to find themselves doing most of the compromising. Still, that's an unforced choice. It is neither coerced, nor manipulated behaviour.

    Where INTPs seem inflexible, it's often not a choice and therefore, non-negotiable. They may be so profoundly controlled by their own anxieties or self-expectations, that the weight of another person's feels like a completely unmanageable burden (inferior Fe). They also won't do anything that seems unreasonable, because they prioritise reasonableness above harmonious relations. It's easy to dismiss as stubbornness or controlling behaviour something which may actually be a matter of principle or even just a genuine deficit. If you can construct a convincing argument, they will often capitulate. (Unless they have underlying pathologies which are not type-related.)

  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Can you provide examples of what you're specifically talking about? I think I know, but I'm not certain. And I think there are a number of ways of looking at the issue...
    You explained better what I was trying to describe.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #18
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Such a problem is this, that it could very well be the reason we go so far out of our way to 'leave things open,' and 'postpone plans for the last minute,' because we never know what our Fe is going to want to do unless we're talking about the present.
    Not entirely true. With enough experience, you can understand how you are going to react in certain situations, and avoid those those situations if possible. I think that might be introverted sensing.


    Personally I don't like to control others.
    I don't like to control others, but sometimes I find myself having to deal with the fallout from inaction, which is frustrating. Just giving people information isn't enough in many cases, unfortunately. Then they'll go and hold you accountable for their own ineptitude.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  9. #19
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I am a control freak with myself in some ways. I particularly want to have control of my mind (which is why I have in the past had issues with relaxation, meditation, and using substances), which is something I think INTP's can relate to. Ti I think, with its personalized understanding, respects everyone's ability to make up their own mind and make their own decisions. They can direct other people for a purpose, but it's never some sort of power trip.

    I used to totally feel like the OP when I was younger. Now I can be comfortable with it at work because I know it's not personal. It's just utilizing people as resources to direct energy toward a goal, and deciding how things should best be done. I still have a hard time directing other people though, because I don't want to be that exaggerated idea of a person I had in youth who tries to control others in a bad way. I do get annoyed being micromanaged, and when management doesn't want my input. I think my ideas are good and hearing new perspectives isn't a threat. I like to ask questions so I can make good decisions, and it's annoying when management doesn't like it. I don't like being micromanaged because it's insulting to my ability to make good decisions. If they don't trust employees to make good decisions, they have little real criteria on which to hire people.

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I had serious issues with controlling other people in my early twenties.

    I was(am) in charge of quite a few people profesionally but it didn't go much farther than occasionally telling them what needs to be done, although most of the time I expected them to know what they needed to do, and hope they do it and do it right. I completely lacked the ability to take a guiding role and if a job was not done to my content, I mostly just met it with passive agressiveness and usually ended up doing or fixing it myself rather than allowing that person to do or fix their own stuff.

    Anyhow, I guess it took me several years of experience to sort of slowly move from there to where I am now. Now I no longer have any issues having a leadership position. I have little issues delegating people and where mistakes are made I can now confront these people appropiately without negativity or contempt and work towards betterment.

    I think it was mostly a matter of perspective. I no longer see other people in my company as puppets that need to be controlled every step of the way (which was something I couldnt bring myself to do, but nonetheless something I thought was neccesary, oh the irony).

    I see them as part of the machine that sometimes need to be oiled. I dont need control them, I just need steer them.



    As for self-control. That seems to be a neccesity for an INTP, doesn't it? I don't think there's an INTP not wanting to have self-control. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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