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  1. #61
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Inferior feeling does not automatically mean that people entirely lack the ability to feel empathy, create emotional connections or socially interact with people in a meaningful way. There can be a wide range of reasons as to why a person might experience themselves as socially inept that is completely unrelated to say, MBTI type.
    While any type can come across as socially inept, the reasons for that will be strongly influenced by type. The same is true about any observable behavior. Any type can exhibit any behavior, it is why and in what manner they are doing so that will differ from type to type.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Fe has thus in such a sense necessarily little and nothing to do with a person's ability to socialize. Also, just because a function is rejected into the unconsciousness it does not mean the function must automatically be used poorly or not at all. It is the dominant-inferior relationship that is the most important relationship in a person's psyche, and as such, even if Fe is in the inferior psychological position it can still be utilized well or more than the dominant. It is just not done so consciously as in that the person in question is consciously aware that they are now performing an Fe evaluation. That makes the function inferior are thus two criteria:

    1. It is repressed into the unconsciousness which leads to that
    2. The ego has no conscious control of how the function comes across which can make it come across as very black and white.

    It is important to understand that (2) does not mean the function is used poorly, but that the function itself does not come across as very nuanced when expressed.
    Again, Fe will influence how one socializes more than whether one socializes. I would expect the E/I attribute to be most closely linked to predisposition to socialize.

    The highlighted comments do not make sense. Yes, the inferior function lacks conscious control, operates without subtlety, but still may have effects that are very strong. By this description, though (with which I generally agree), it is at best a loose cannon. Why and how can someone use a function well when it is outside conscious control?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Just because you favor Fe in your functional stacking it does not mean you will actually be socially appropriate. It completely depends on how the Fe type understands social appropriateness to begin with. My grandmother is an ESFJ and I think most of my family would in fact consider her quite socially inappropriate, especially by today's standards, as her understanding of social appropriateness hinges on her Si experiences and none of those experiences are particularly relevant today.
    A great example of my comment above, in how type influences the way in which someone manifests a common behavior, here social inappropriateness.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Depending on the severity of the autism itself, I am uncertain people with autism can even be properly typed, cognitively. This is because the way their brain works is fundamentally different to that of a "normal" person.
    Yes, MBTI theory assumes a healthy individual. But what is "healthy"? How much/many of the qualities associated with autism (or depression or bipolar behavior, or . . . ) must one demonstrate in order to cross the line? That is an important part of this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Why exactly do I need to understand this? And why is it your business to try to point it out to me? Especially as you are not "correcting" my understanding of the functions as they relate to this, because you're not explaining how or why. I actually did think about where to put it, and I put it in the place closest to my immediate purpose, which was to attract the attention of people who I thought might relate to it. I don't think that relates to poor use of thinking, we just don't agree about there being an association with type.
    Yes, your thinking process was sound, based upon your stated goals. Someone who has a different goal in discussing the topic might have placed the thread elsewhere. In any case, posting something in the NT subforum does not exclude participation by other types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Actually, I've read an a couple of articles lately on female aspies - they echoed this one but took it further. There's a recent theory that men tend to test more frequently for Asperger's syndrome because the diagnostic requirements are designed for a male brain. High Functioning Autism is often described as being very literal, to the point of lacking imagination entirely, and having no ability to read social cues. But the male brain generally (and I emphasis that word - generally) already leans towards a more literal, logical mode of thought, and parts of the brain related to social interaction (such as relating to communication) are less developed. So it could be said the (male) Asperger's is like extreme 'maleness'. With this, and the innate differences of the female brain in mind, it is not unexpected that there may be a female version that is being missed.
    Simon Baron-Cohen has many worthwhile papers on this topic, namely the gender distribution in Aspergers/autism and possible reasons for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I also want to say that people should be very careful pulling the whole, "everyone has those problems" line when it comes to disorders. While I understand their suspicion of modern psychology (especially with the issues surrounding over-diagnosis), they must also realise how incredibly dismissive that is towards people with genuine issues - it can even be dangerous. Imagine telling a clinically depressed person that, "everyone feels sad now and then - it's not such a big deal". The point is it has little to do with whether other people may have similar problems; it actually comes down to whether someone is - in psychology language - "maladaptive". If the problems are having a persistent, intrusive impact on their life, then a disorder might be the cause.
    Everyone does have problems. As I asked a couple pages ago, what is the dividing line between, e.g. feeling depressed now and then as many people do, and having true clinical depression? Too low a threshold leads to overdiagnosis; too high, and serious problems are unaddressed. Ability to function in daily life is the yardstick I suggested, with the important caveat that this is strongly influenced by external social factors. I would not say, though, that inability to function is caused by a disorder, but rather that it indicates the problem is significant enough to be a disorder. In other words, it is more a matter of degree.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #62
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    @LeaT, I guess we'll just have to disagree about this stuff. You see things from a strict Jungian point of view and I simply don't.
    Fine, although of course it begs the question what system you are understanding and why you choose to understand it that way.

    Why exactly do I need to understand this? And why is it your business to try to point it out to me? Especially as you are not "correcting" my understanding of the functions as they relate to this, because you're not explaining how or why. I actually did think about where to put it, and I put it in the place closest to my immediate purpose, which was to attract the attention of people who I thought might relate to it. I don't think that relates to poor use of thinking, we just don't agree about there being an association with type.
    It pertains to the sentence I wrote above.

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  3. #63
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    While any type can come across as socially inept, the reasons for that will be strongly influenced by type. The same is true about any observable behavior. Any type can exhibit any behavior, it is why and in what manner they are doing so that will differ from type to type.
    Yes, I never intended to imply otherwise.

    Again, Fe will influence how one socializes more than whether one socializes. I would expect the E/I attribute to be most closely linked to predisposition to socialize.
    I think we understand the I/E axis differently. What I described was not the MBTI understanding of the I/E axis but Jung's.

    The highlighted comments do not make sense. Yes, the inferior function lacks conscious control, operates without subtlety, but still may have effects that are very strong. By this description, though (with which I generally agree), it is at best a loose cannon. Why and how can someone use a function well when it is outside conscious control?
    Because we can practice using the function in an unconscious manner. You aren't consciously aware of most of your bodily processes but yet you are fully capable of walking, breathing and doing a number of other things with it. Look at my thinking. I utilize Te so much when I logically reason and think in general at all that most people mistake me for an ego-conscious Te type. I have no control or aware of my thinking in such a sense, but would you consider my thinking bad...? Is the reasoning necessarily weak and would you be able to tell I have inferior thinking based on these posts?

    A great example of my comment above, in how type influences the way in which someone manifests a common behavior, here social inappropriateness.
    Yes, but the definition of social appropriateness itself varies between individuals and their function preferences.
    Yes, MBTI theory assumes a healthy individual. But what is "healthy"? How much/many of the qualities associated with autism (or depression or bipolar behavior, or . . . ) must one demonstrate in order to cross the line? That is an important part of this discussion.
    I agree, although I am uncertain as to what your point is with this paragraph with regards to my comment whether it is useful to apply the MBTI theory on people with altered cognition.

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  4. #64
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Imo aspergers isnt over presented in INTPs, i dont think you can even fit people with aspergers to MBTI type.

    If you look at traits of people with aspergers usually have, they are extremely organized, need routines etc, which are J traits. Also they tend to be extremely sensitive to sensory stimulation, which hints at S. They also tend to live much in their own heads, which is a sign of introversion. On top of that, all cases which i have seen, read or watched videos of seem more like ISTJ, but heavily malfunctioning, so much that i really dont think you can even call them ISTJs, but are more like Si Ni Fi Te. The thing with aspergers is that they have few areas of the brains that have really strong connections to some other particular area and high activity on those, but have really weak connections and activity in most of the brains. This is why you cant really put functions in normal way and cant really make MBTI type out of them.

    We have this middle aged woman with aspergers in this job i started last week and she seems most like an ESTJ with poorly developed Te. While being quite outgoing and talkative, she does these weird things like the other day we were taking a coffee break and she sat next to me and some other people were having a conversation on other table, she responded to what those other people said and was like part of the conversation, but to me it was clear that those other people didnt even notice her talking and she didnt seem to understand it, because it lasted for like 5 minutes
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  5. #65
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Imo aspergers isnt over presented in INTPs, i dont think you can even fit people with aspergers to MBTI type.

    If you look at traits of people with aspergers usually have, they are extremely organized, need routines etc, which are J traits. Also they tend to be extremely sensitive to sensory stimulation, which hints at S. They also tend to live much in their own heads, which is a sign of introversion. On top of that, all cases which i have seen, read or watched videos of seem more like ISTJ, but heavily malfunctioning, so much that i really dont think you can even call them ISTJs, but are more like Si Ni Fi Te. The thing with aspergers is that they have few areas of the brains that have really strong connections to some other particular area and high activity on those, but have really weak connections and activity in most of the brains. This is why you cant really put functions in normal way and cant really make MBTI type out of them.

    We have this middle aged woman with aspergers in this job i started last week and she seems most like an ESTJ with poorly developed Te. While being quite outgoing and talkative, she does these weird things like the other day we were taking a coffee break and she sat next to me and some other people were having a conversation on other table, she responded to what those other people said and was like part of the conversation, but to me it was clear that those other people didnt even notice her talking and she didnt seem to understand it, because it lasted for like 5 minutes
    Well, maybe a lot of them are untypeable. I do think though that if everyone or most people supposedly has a type which sticks with them their whole lives, then Asperger people would too; it just might be really atypical. Maybe they would start to look more like their true type as they develop and become more functional; but then they would look more like other types too, as their functions mature.

    So if this is true, then maybe several people on here who have a lot of trouble typing themselves have Asperger's. So then they can safely just pick a type they think fits the best and not worry about all the ways it doesn't. If you're going to say people with mental disorders can't be typed, you'd have to allow for high functioning people who have not received a diagnosis.

    I still think there are some types which have more of a predisposition towards certain conditions than others. I think every type is disposed toward one or more.

  6. #66
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Yes, I never intended to imply otherwise.
    I think we understand the I/E axis differently. What I described was not the MBTI understanding of the I/E axis but Jung's.
    What differences do you have in mind? E usually indicates an orientation toward outside influences/stimuli, while I toward those that are internal. This is the distinction I was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Because we can practice using the function in an unconscious manner. You aren't consciously aware of most of your bodily processes but yet you are fully capable of walking, breathing and doing a number of other things with it. Look at my thinking. I utilize Te so much when I logically reason and think in general at all that most people mistake me for an ego-conscious Te type. I have no control or aware of my thinking in such a sense, but would you consider my thinking bad...? Is the reasoning necessarily weak and would you be able to tell I have inferior thinking based on these posts?
    This still doesn't follow. Activities like walking may be unconscious now, but had to be learned in our early life. A truly unconscious bodily process, like breathing, swallowing, or circulating blood through our systems is never really practiced in the same sense. We don't get better at it, unlike the toddler whose steps become more firm and confident with each passing week. Most people who report using less preferred functions well describe bringing them under conscious control as the first step in improving their ability.

    As for your thinking ability, you strike me as much more of a Ti-user. I assumed Ti-dom, reading your listed type initially as INTP which seems a good fit. Then I noticed the x (I'm currently using a poor monitor, with old eyeglasses). So - my apologies for the possible typing error.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Yes, but the definition of social appropriateness itself varies between individuals and their function preferences.
    Social appropriateness usually is determined by a society or culture, or at least prevails within that context, independent of the preferences and opinions of those within it. Some types will be deemed more appropriate within certain cultures or contexts. All of this just increases the ambiguity of attempting to analyze people's motivations and behaviors, from a perspective of function theory, or otherwise. (It is why I find physical systems much more tractable to analyze.)

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I agree, although I am uncertain as to what your point is with this paragraph with regards to my comment whether it is useful to apply the MBTI theory on people with altered cognition.
    Again, theory vs. practice. We can all agree that MBTI is useless on someone with altered cognition. Now, can you identify who falls into that category with reasonable certainty?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #67
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Simon Baron-Cohen has many worthwhile papers on this topic, namely the gender distribution in Aspergers/autism and possible reasons for it.
    I've read some of his work before - he's quite good. He's the foremost authority on autism isn't he? I'll look those articles up.

    Everyone does have problems. As I asked a couple pages ago, what is the dividing line between, e.g. feeling depressed now and then as many people do, and having true clinical depression? Too low a threshold leads to overdiagnosis; too high, and serious problems are unaddressed. Ability to function in daily life is the yardstick I suggested, with the important caveat that this is strongly influenced by external social factors. I would not say, though, that inability to function is caused by a disorder, but rather that it indicates the problem is significant enough to be a disorder. In other words, it is more a matter of degree.
    Yes, it is difficult to know about where the line is. Even, "the ability to function in daily life" is a hazy definition, because what is considered sufficiently capable? You're still stuck having to define "normal". I mean a lot of people with serious disorders can get through the day pretty successfully but we can't see the struggle going on behind it. You also have people who have learned to cleverly skirt around things they find hard and people don't notice. On top of that it can be hard to tell the difference between unwillingness to do something and an innate difficulty with that task - compulsion can be disguised as bad choices. I don't even know myself which my problems fit into. They certainly feel like compulsions - I've spent so many years trying to resist and overcome them without much progress to show for it. But maybe I'm just weak minded or need some cognitive behavioural therapy.

    Like I said, I understand the suspicion - it is such a subjective science.
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  8. #68
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I agree with @LeaT's assessment of herself as INFP with high Te; it has always seemed to me that she uses Te not Ti. She's very logical, but places more emphasis on facts (outcome) than process I think. Everything she says is based on meticulous research, not her own personal theories. Plus the tenacity with which she asserts things seems more like a less differentiated function. I can't really explain the connection there because it's intuitive. Another thing, the serial killer next door thing looks very misanthropic cynical Fi to me.

    At least this is my assessment. We could both be wrong and she could be an extremely emotional INTP or INTJ.

    Edit: I'm assuming you're female from your name. Sorry if I'm mistaken.

    And you know what's funny? She's Socionics EII and I'm LII. If you believe the test results were accurate. And people think she's Ti and I'm Fi.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What differences do you have in mind? E usually indicates an orientation toward outside influences/stimuli, while I toward those that are internal. This is the distinction I was making.
    Yes, and to me E is the same as having an psychical objective bias and I a psychical subjective bias. So less to do with stimuli and more to do with how we ontologically understand the world.

    This still doesn't follow. Activities like walking may be unconscious now, but had to be learned in our early life. A truly unconscious bodily process, like breathing, swallowing, or circulating blood through our systems is never really practiced in the same sense. We don't get better at it, unlike the toddler whose steps become more firm and confident with each passing week. Most people who report using less preferred functions well describe bringing them under conscious control as the first step in improving their ability.
    I don't share their experiences. I understand your disagreement but how well we can utilize a function isn't necessarily related to conscious control. This becomes evident if you take two people together with the same function preferences and ask them to do the same tasks and you will find that they will be better and worse at performing it in various areas.

    Similarly, one can be innately good at something without having to practice it or having control/awareness of what they do. You can also continually engage in activities that forces you to tap into the unconsciousness.

    As for your thinking ability, you strike me as much more of a Ti-user. I assumed Ti-dom, reading your listed type initially as INTP which seems a good fit. Then I noticed the x (I'm currently using a poor monitor, with old eyeglasses). So - my apologies for the possible typing error.
    Most people do.

    Social appropriateness usually is determined by a society or culture, or at least prevails within that context, independent of the preferences and opinions of those within it. Some types will be deemed more appropriate within certain cultures or contexts. All of this just increases the ambiguity of attempting to analyze people's motivations and behaviors, from a perspective of function theory, or otherwise. (It is why I find physical systems much more tractable to analyze.)
    So then we're not in disagreement.

    Again, theory vs. practice. We can all agree that MBTI is useless on someone with altered cognition. Now, can you identify who falls into that category with reasonable certainty?
    I don't think that was quite the point I was making, whether we can identify such people. We can do it using external measures such as the DSM, but it comes back to what you write in the above as well and how noticeably dysfunctional an individual appears to be based on shared cultural social values.

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  10. #70
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I agree with @LeaT's assessment of herself as INFP with high Te; it has always seemed to me that she uses Te not Ti. She's very logical, but places more emphasis on facts (outcome) than process I think. Everything she says is based on meticulous research, not her own personal theories.
    Thank you for implying I cannot think and make my own theories. I could, but what's the point doing it here? By the way, I want to clarify I'm not offended in any way, I just found it mildly humorous you'd write it like that. Also, claiming my research is "meticulous" is also ironic considering that I've hardly read any official material at all about the subjects I wrote about...

    Plus the tenacity with which she asserts things seems more like a less differentiated function. I can't really explain the connection there because it's intuitive. Another thing, the serial killer next door thing looks very misanthropic cynical Fi to me.
    If you want to know, it's more of an old-time joke. I wouldn't try to derive too much meaning in the little titles and sentences like that without knowing the background behind them.
    And you know what's funny? She's Socionics EII and I'm LII. If you believe the test results were accurate. And people think she's Ti and I'm Fi.
    I honestly think you're more likely FeTi based on these posts from you. I also think you're SiNe. You do the math.

    As for the comment in bold, I think there's a reason why that is - the way I come across is ultimately dispassionate and impersonal. Why is that? Reliance on T-reasoning. If people think you are Fi I think you ought to ask yourself why this is and why people ultimately seem to think you come across like a feeler in text. It suggests that people do not read the tone of your posts as dispassionate and impersonal that we associate with the T function.

    Not because I'm saying that all thinking dominant types must come across as dispassionate and impersonal but T as a function doesn't consider emotional value and to convey emotional value, especially not when describing logic, logical systems and other things pertaining to T as a reasoning process. There are plenty of Fi types who also come across as what you could say, emotional, even though Fi is as a whole more subdued compared to Fe (although Fe dominant types can be pretty cold, too), and I think it's because they rely more on their F reasoning as a whole than T and this is reflected in how people write.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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