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  1. #51
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Jeez, people. I'm not suggesting you all have autism spectrum disorders. I'm providing information which could help you develop social skills IF you have trouble with that. Lighten up. Try assuming the best of people sometimes. That's a technique for social interaction, btw. If you have some level of trust that people have good intentions and give a charitable interpretation of their actions, they are more likely to cooperate and like you.

  2. #52
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Ahmagadz, there's no correlation at all! Let's fill the thread with 50 more posts to make sure greenfairy gets it.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think it's simply (in INTP's) that introverted thinking is the opposite of social. First being introverted, it is oriented to the inner world, which does not include other people. Second, it is analytical, which is the opposite process of feeling, empathy, connection, interaction, etc. Social things are just not conducive to analysis. Ne and Fe balance it out pretty well in a healthy type, but Fe being last poses problems with integration as it is opposed the dominant function. The function order doesn't of course produce disorders or anything like that, but it does create a disposition which could go in that direction with certain environmental factors which would discourage social interaction.
    Inferior feeling does not automatically mean that people entirely lack the ability to feel empathy, create emotional connections or socially interact with people in a meaningful way. There can be a wide range of reasons as to why a person might experience themselves as socially inept that is completely unrelated to say, MBTI type.

    I also feel you fundamentally misunderstand how the theory operates. When the ego favors Ti as its dominant function, what this means is that the ego will also reject the function opposing it with the opposite attitude and project this function into the unconsciousness, in this case Fe. This means that the ego will not usually be capable of making ego-conscious Fe-based evaluations, since Fe is an evaluation function, just like thinking. Fe evaluation does in itself not necessarily pertain to feelings as much as it evaluates feeling as a logical system. Being extroverted, it means it does so in an extroverted way and thus orients itself towards that of others being other people, groups or social situations in general.

    Fe has thus in such a sense necessarily little and nothing to do with a person's ability to socialize. Also, just because a function is rejected into the unconsciousness it does not mean the function must automatically be used poorly or not at all. It is the dominant-inferior relationship that is the most important relationship in a person's psyche, and as such, even if Fe is in the inferior psychological position it can still be utilized well or more than the dominant. It is just not done so consciously as in that the person in question is consciously aware that they are now performing an Fe evaluation. That makes the function inferior are thus two criteria:

    1. It is repressed into the unconsciousness which leads to that
    2. The ego has no conscious control of how the function comes across which can make it come across as very black and white.

    It is important to understand that (2) does not mean the function is used poorly, but that the function itself does not come across as very nuanced when expressed.
    I think ISTP's have less of a problem because Se makes them more connected to the outside world via the physical.
    The same logic as I outlined in the above applies to ISTPs, also being Ti-dominants. Jus because they favor the experiences of the sense-world it doesn't mean they must actually like being around people. The sense-world just also so happened to include people, but so do intuitive ideas.

    INFP's could experience it because Fi can become very introverted and self focused; however Fi has an advantage over Ti in that it is non-analytical, and so the individual usually at least understands feelings if not social behavior (which is more Fe); so an Fi dominant could probably identify feelings in other people better than the average ITP.
    Fi can be as analytical as the other judging functions since it is after all, a judging function, and Fi can be as oriented to what is socially appropriate conduct like any other type can be. However, Fi types do not evaluate the definitional standard of socially appropriate conduct based on the objective world like Fe types do. Just because you favor Fe in your functional stacking it does not mean you will actually be socially appropriate. It completely depends on how the Fe type understands social appropriateness to begin with. My grandmother is an ESFJ and I think most of my family would in fact consider her quite socially inappropriate, especially by today's standards, as her understanding of social appropriateness hinges on her Si experiences and none of those experiences are particularly relevant today.
    I'm sure there are other types which have autism spectrum disorders, but I think some types are more prevalent than others simply because of the functions. Just like an EFJ would probably be more represented in a certain disorder than ITP's.
    Depending on the severity of the autism itself, I am uncertain people with autism can even be properly typed, cognitively. This is because the way their brain works is fundamentally different to that of a "normal" person.

    Care to comment on this in this thread? http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-fe-vs-fi.html
    Yes, I can. It's a simple question.

    True, somehow I missed that. Sorry to offend people with my misplacement of the thread. My Fe is inferior to other people's apparently, no matter where it is.
    I don't think this was a case of poor use of feeling but rather a case of poor use of thinking.

    And I don't think it relates equally to all NT's by any means. An extrovert 9 times out of 10 would be far more social, and so would have practice and opportunity for learning appropriate behavior. I could see INTJ's being oblivious as well, but social skills are not specifically listed as an area of weakness as they are with INTP.
    According to who? People can be socially oblivious for many reasons.
    What's HSP?
    Highly sensitive person.

    I never suggested this. But if you believe JCF has any merit, it's just an application. Just like some functions are better suited for math and computer science, others are more suited for social interaction. Some people are better at it than others; what makes us think it's an exception and it's not related at all to type? Yes there are a lot of environmental factors, which are more important, but environmental factors only shape inherent dispositions. If you believe in a balance of nature and nurture, which I do.
    And as you can see, the name of the quote is not yours.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #54
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Inferior feeling does not automatically mean that people entirely lack the ability to feel empathy, create emotional connections or socially interact with people in a meaningful way. There can be a wide range of reasons as to why a person might experience themselves as socially inept that is completely unrelated to say, MBTI type.
    No, I never said they did. But some things I think are connected.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I also feel you fundamentally misunderstand how the theory operates. When the ego favors Ti as its dominant function, what this means is that the ego will also reject the function opposing it with the opposite attitude and project this function into the unconsciousness, in this case Fe. This means that the ego will not usually be capable of making ego-conscious Fe-based evaluations, since Fe is an evaluation function, just like thinking. Fe evaluation does in itself not necessarily pertain to feelings as much as it evaluates feeling as a logical system. Being extroverted, it means it does so in an extroverted way and thus orients itself towards that of others being other people, groups or social situations in general.
    I understand this, but I think it does have to do with socializing.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Fe has thus in such a sense necessarily little and nothing to do with a person's ability to socialize. Also, just because a function is rejected into the unconsciousness it does not mean the function must automatically be used poorly or not at all. It is the dominant-inferior relationship that is the most important relationship in a person's psyche, and as such, even if Fe is in the inferior psychological position it can still be utilized well or more than the dominant. It is just not done so consciously as in that the person in question is consciously aware that they are now performing an Fe evaluation. That makes the function inferior are thus two criteria:

    1. It is repressed into the unconsciousness which leads to that
    2. The ego has no conscious control of how the function comes across which can make it come across as very black and white.

    It is important to understand that (2) does not mean the function is used poorly, but that the function itself does not come across as very nuanced when expressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Fi can be as analytical as the other judging functions since it is after all, a judging function, and Fi can be as oriented to what is socially appropriate conduct like any other type can be.
    Any of the functions can make use of the abilities of any of the other functions, but they'll each have their own specialization. And analysis is not Fi's. Is there a point to you relativizing MBTI? Because we're still on a typology website. You can't coherently pretend the types and functions aren't distinct and don't mean anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    However, Fi types do not evaluate the definitional standard of socially appropriate conduct based on the objective world like Fe types do. Just because you favor Fe in your functional stacking it does not mean you will actually be socially appropriate. It completely depends on how the Fe type understands social appropriateness to begin with. My grandmother is an ESFJ and I think most of my family would in fact consider her quite socially inappropriate, especially by today's standards, as her understanding of social appropriateness hinges on her Si experiences and none of those experiences are particularly relevant today.
    That's an interesting way of looking at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Depending on the severity of the autism itself, I am uncertain people with autism can even be properly typed, cognitively. This is because the way their brain works is fundamentally different to that of a "normal" person.
    I think everyone can be typed, but that's just my opinion. With varying degrees of accuracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I don't think this was a case of poor use of feeling but rather a case of poor use of thinking.
    I was apologizing for my mistake being annoying or offensive, not for making the mistake itself. I don't appreciate the unsolicited evaluation of my thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    According to who? People can be socially oblivious for many reasons.
    According to this: http://http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html for INTP. I was just guessing for being oblivious. That wasn't meant to be a scientifically based opinion. It's an intuitive perception.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Highly sensitive person.
    Yeah, like I say, a lot of these things overlap. "Highly sensitive" I think means some people haven't cut themselves off from nature and instinct as much as some others. I don't believe it's an actual disorder, no matter what the psychologists think. They want to label everything as some kind of condition.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    And as you can see, the name of the quote is not yours.
    What does this even mean?

  5. #55
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Ahmagadz, there's no correlation at all! Let's fill the thread with 50 more posts to make sure greenfairy gets it.
    How do you know? Can you cite a source, or are you just dismissing it because you don't want to believe there's a correlation? Have there been studies?

  6. #56
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    How do you know? Can you cite a source, or are you just dismissing it because you don't want to believe there's a correlation? Have there been studies?
    I was being sarcastic, which seemed obvious enough. You may actually be an aspie, after all.

    Since I'm feeling kind, I'll put a link to a website that demonstrates a prevalence of INTXs among autists, supporting your theory:
    http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt185828.html

    To everyone else: do not quote me to discuss sample size or test inaccuracy, I'm not interested.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  7. #57
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I was being sarcastic, which seemed obvious enough. You may actually be an aspie, after all.

    Since I'm feeling kind, I'll put a link to a website that demonstrates a prevalence of INTXs among autists, supporting your theory:
    http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt185828.html


    To everyone else: do not quote me to discuss sample size or test inaccuracy, I'm not interested.
    Oh ok. Sorry. Thanks. Yeah I often don't know how serious people are unless it's obvious, especially if I can't see them in person.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    No, I never said they did. But some things I think are connected.
    And I'm saying you are seeing connections that aren't there.

    I understand this, but I think it does have to do with socializing.
    It doesn't in a strict Jungian sense.
    Any of the functions can make use of the abilities of any of the other functions, but they'll each have their own specialization. And analysis is not Fi's. Is there a point to you relativizing MBTI? Because we're still on a typology website. You can't coherently pretend the types and functions aren't distinct and don't mean anything.
    Functions do not specialize. That is not how they operate. Functions are a specific way of taking in information and understanding said information about the world and that's as specialized as you will get. Being a concrete and "hands on" learner doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Se, for example, or even Si but more to do with whether a person is most likely a kinaesthetic learner or not which is very different to how they actually perceive the world around them. A person can be a kinaesthetic learner and be an intuitive.

    That's an interesting way of looking at it.
    It's a Jungian way of looking at it.
    I think everyone can be typed, but that's just my opinion. With varying degrees of accuracy.
    Yes, but the question then becomes, is it accurate to try to apply a model that operates on that people's cognition is in fact "normal" and expect that model to explain these people as well? Logically speaking, no, it's not. It leads to the logical fallacy that the phenomena in both cases are in fact the same or have the same cause which is not necessarily true. It could be that autistic people evaluate and perceive the world just like the "rest" of us do, but due to their different neurological make-up we cannot be sure of this.

    Certain kinds of humor such as sarcasm and irony play on intuitive ideas, for instance the fact that Dexter's boat in the TV series is called Slice of Life. In order to understand the humor behind the name, you must also realize the intuitive connection between the character Dexter being a serial killer and what he does to understand that "slice of life" is a word pun where "slice of life" does not indicate what we usually think it indicates, i.e. it's kind of caught in the moment (which in itself is also an intuitive expression since we don't mean it in a literal sense but it describes an idea).

    A person with autism might not understand this because autistic people tend to interpret things literary. Does it mean autistic people cannot be intuitives? I don't think so, but it's a perfect example to illustrate how the cognition of an autistic person does not operate like it does for a "normal" person where even a healthy inferior N type would understand that "slice of life" is ironic word punnery. I have no doubt in my mind that my ESTP cousin being inferior Ni would understand it for example.
    I was apologizing for my mistake being annoying or offensive, not for making the mistake itself. I don't appreciate the unsolicited evaluation of my thinking.
    And I'm pointing out that if you had taken the time to logically consider where to put the thread before you made the thread, this would not have happened. It's thus an example of weak use of thinking. The reason why I'm pointing it out is that you excuse your behavior due to weak Fe, but that's simply not correct. Your behavior was not caused by weak Fe but weak T. You need to realize the differences between F and T as functions because I don't think the way you understand them is how they are actually defined in a Jungian sense.
    According to this: http://http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html for INTP. I was just guessing for being oblivious. That wasn't meant to be a scientifically based opinion. It's an intuitive perception.
    That's hardly a very good source. They don't even describe the functions as much as they describe a generic and stereotype personality even those that aren't INTPs themselves in terms of function make-up but happened to have the personality they describe can relate to. Enneatype 5s, for example.
    Yeah, like I say, a lot of these things overlap. "Highly sensitive" I think means some people haven't cut themselves off from nature and instinct as much as some others. I don't believe it's an actual disorder, no matter what the psychologists think. They want to label everything as some kind of condition.
    Psychologists have never claimed that HSP is a "disorder" but what they describe is that HSP is a temperament that is most likely result of genetics because HSP children are more neurologically active when reacting to stimuli.

    I for example cannot stand certain sounds such as screeching noises and need to cover my ears because it hurts in my body listening to it, and this includes sounds that others may not find as uncomfortable. I'm also incredibly sensitive to smells which can cause physical displeasure such as cigarette smoking giving me a headache, other foul-smelling smells or strong perfumes making me nauseous and finding it difficult to breathe and so on. You just learn to get around with these things. I never considered myself abnormal for being HSP although it's a nuisance being out in public because others don't consider that you are and thus expose you to stimuli that you'd rather avoid being exposed to.

    It's not so much labeling it as a condition as much as it is recognizing that people are different and trying to understand the cause of this.
    What does this even mean?
    It was not your quote so your accusation was misguided to begin with since I never claimed that you wrote or believed such a thing.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #59
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    @LeaT, I guess we'll just have to disagree about this stuff. You see things from a strict Jungian point of view and I simply don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    And I'm pointing out that if you had taken the time to logically consider where to put the thread before you made the thread, this would not have happened. It's thus an example of weak use of thinking. The reason why I'm pointing it out is that you excuse your behavior due to weak Fe, but that's simply not correct. Your behavior was not caused by weak Fe but weak T. You need to realize the differences between F and T as functions because I don't think the way you understand them is how they are actually defined in a Jungian sense.
    Why exactly do I need to understand this? And why is it your business to try to point it out to me? Especially as you are not "correcting" my understanding of the functions as they relate to this, because you're not explaining how or why. I actually did think about where to put it, and I put it in the place closest to my immediate purpose, which was to attract the attention of people who I thought might relate to it. I don't think that relates to poor use of thinking, we just don't agree about there being an association with type.

  10. #60
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Actually, I've read an a couple of articles lately on female aspies - they echoed this one but took it further. There's a recent theory that men tend to test more frequently for Asperger's syndrome because the diagnostic requirements are designed for a male brain. High Functioning Autism is often described as being very literal, to the point of lacking imagination entirely, and having no ability to read social cues. But the male brain generally (and I emphasis that word - generally) already leans towards a more literal, logical mode of thought, and parts of the brain related to social interaction (such as relating to communication) are less developed. So it could be said the (male) Asperger's is like extreme 'maleness'. With this, and the innate differences of the female brain in mind, it is not unexpected that there may be a female version that is being missed.

    I also want to say that people should be very careful pulling the whole, "everyone has those problems" line when it comes to disorders. While I understand their suspicion of modern psychology (especially with the issues surrounding over-diagnosis), they must also realise how incredibly dismissive that is towards people with genuine issues - it can even be dangerous. Imagine telling a clinically depressed person that, "everyone feels sad now and then - it's not such a big deal". The point is it has little to do with whether other people may have similar problems; it actually comes down to whether someone is - in psychology language - "maladaptive". If the problems are having a persistent, intrusive impact on their life, then a disorder might be the cause.

    Also for people whom potentially have Asperger's syndrome, an article like that, might not be just a little bit true for them (like some of you suggested) it might really click deep down. It might feel like it explains everything they've been having problems with. I say this because it does for me - that's why I've been reading those articles. I actually fit a lot of the little Asperger's traits too - including body shape, posture, extreme lack of eye contact, walking on tip toes and repetitive movements. The reason I thought I dismissed the possibility is those 'male' aspects that I didn't fit with (ie. I'm not totally socially incapable and I'm very imaginative). I'm not saying that I'm convinced I have it but I'm considering the chance that I could.

    I just think that real discussion could be valuable here rather than dismissive criticism.

    EDIT: maybe I'll try to find those other articles...
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