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  1. #31
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    I related to much of the stuff in the original post. When young, I preferred legos to Barbies, had an odd way of playing with toys, cared less about clothes and perfume, etc. I've never gotten an official diagnosis but I did a have a past therapist suggest it as a possibility. I think based on my childhood, it was eerily similar to what many kids with Asperger syndrome experience. Based on self-diagnosis, I'd say I do have a mild form of Aspergers. It isn't debilitating to the degree that is for some and the average person walking down the street would probably never suspect something was kinda 'off' about me. It's the people who more closely communicate with me that may pick up subtle clues that something isn't quite right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post

    EDIT: the more that I think about it, I think the difference with Aspie's is actually obliviousness; even my friend who has Asperger's who is all down with causes and meeting new people, it's almost like he's too naive, like he'd just walk up to any seemingly receptive person and just start talking, and not realize if he was boring or annoying them, but not doing it with any malice or cruelty, almost like a hyper small child in that regard, probably could get him in trouble with bad people. I think even with more introverted and less feeling aspies, it's still obliviousness instead of cruelty, almost just like they just want to be left alone, and only want to talk to others to discuss hobbies or interests, not "socialize."

    The narcissist is actually quite manipulative, so isn't so much oblivious, but actually does not care about anyone on a fundamental level other than himself, even when he imagines he loves, he loves an idealized projection, an extension of himself.
    Very good points.
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  2. #32
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    It annoys me so much that this was posted in the NT commune.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  3. #33
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    It annoys me so much that this was posted in the NT commune.
    Why? Are you denying a correlation independent of any evidence? I'm not claiming either a correlation or evidence, but I saw a source somewhere that did, and I see similarities (and some other people have posted about similarities), so I'm provoking discussion, and hoping that some evidence either for or against a correlation will come up. Does it personally offend you that there might be a correlation? If so I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to get at the truth. So I'm not that sorry.

  4. #34
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Why? Are you denying a correlation independent of any evidence? I'm not claiming either a correlation or evidence, but I saw a source somewhere that did, and I see similarities (and some other people have posted about similarities), so I'm provoking discussion, and hoping that some evidence either for or against a correlation will come up. Does it personally offend you that there might be a correlation? If so I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to get at the truth. So I'm not that sorry.
    The association just plays on a fairly knee-jerk stereotype about NTs. Naturally there's a kernel of truth to be found in any stereotype, but that doesn't mean that it's genuinely insightful or worthwhile contribution to dialogue on the group as a whole. I feel this thread was driven more by your desire to feel like you belong somewhere, than actually "provoking discussion". Recognizing that, it's probably unsporting of me to have made my little comment in the first place, but god if I'm not sick of prosaic commentary treated like it's some kind of a revelation. Yes, NTs in general (and INTPs in particular) are socially maladroit. Great. You got anything else?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  5. #35
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Yes, NTs in general (and INTPs in particular) are socially maladroit. Great. You got anything else?
    NTs, especially INTs, often have a perspective, communication style, interests, and even values that differ from those of most people they meet. This can lead to misunderstandings and even friction in social situations, unless all involved make an effort to overcome these differences.


    Better? I don't like stereotyping either, but I see more than a kernel of truth in in some of these associations. It's not so much understanding where you "belong", though that helps; it's understanding what to do when you are clearly where you do not belong. Some people have a harder time with this than others, and I suspect the degree of difficulty and what causes it is a big part of where one falls on the so-called autism spectrum.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #36
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    NTs, especially INTs, often have a perspective, communication style, interests, and even values that differ from those of most people they meet. This can lead to misunderstandings and even friction in social situations, unless all involved make an effort to overcome these differences.


    Better? I don't like stereotyping either, but I see more than a kernel of truth in in some of these associations. It's not so much understanding where you "belong", though that helps; it's understanding what to do when you are clearly where you do not belong. Some people have a harder time with this than others, and I suspect the degree of difficulty and what causes it is a big part of where one falls on the so-called autism spectrum.
    I'm not taking issue with anything you just wrote, but honestly, how is that quote not equally applicable to INFs who are equally uncommon, or intuitives in general for that matter? And what's compelling in and of itself about the idea that being an uncommon type is going to mean making adjustments to get on with the general population? That just seems like common sense to me.

    Moreover, I think tying the difficulties that an INT might have with communicating and relating to some sorta disorder just crystallizes the issue as opposed to it being a challenge to be explored and met head on. I'd be more interested in a conversation that drew on the strategies the autistic used to function in society as a model that INTs might use to aid in their own adaptations then the more superficial parallel that was made here. If there's a problem, then why not work on fixing it rather than huddling around applying labels to yourselves that should probably be reserved for people with real problems.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  7. #37
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    The association just plays on a fairly knee-jerk stereotype about NTs. Naturally there's a kernel of truth to be found in any stereotype, but that doesn't mean that it's genuinely insightful or worthwhile contribution to dialogue on the group as a whole. I feel this thread was driven more by your desire to feel like you belong somewhere, than actually "provoking discussion". Recognizing that, it's probably unsporting of me to have made my little comment in the first place, but god if I'm not sick of prosaic commentary treated like it's some kind of a revelation. Yes, NTs in general (and INTPs in particular) are socially maladroit. Great. You got anything else?
    Fair enough. Maybe it doesn't mean anything. I just thought it was worth exploring to see if it did. And starting the thread had nothing to do with me, I was just using myself as one example of potentially both things. I think it is more than a stereotype. I was thinking both personality and disorders can arise from some sort of common factor, and I wanted to find out what it was. Not that they are the same, or that they are necessarily correlated. If you find the common factor, you can both better treat the disorder and use the information to help certain personalities (or any personality for that matter, as it relates to the common factor) develop to their full potential. Like for instance, there is a website which gives strengths and weaknesses for each type and how to develop the weak areas; INTP advice explicitly addresses some of the same kinds of things Asperger people have trouble with. It basically says to use Ne to observe people, Ti to make sense of their behavior, and then integrate it into Fe in order to learn social skills. What the functions translate into is the same kind of thing you would tell someone with Aspergers. There is the common factor of having trouble with social skills, which doesn't have to have anything to do with a "disorder." What I'm looking for is how trouble with social skills arises, from what cognitive conditions, and then how to teach people to develop themselves according to how those conditions are present in them as an individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I'd be more interested in a conversation that drew on the strategies the autistic used to function in society as a model that INTs might use to aid in their own adaptations then the more superficial parallel that was made here.
    This is what I was getting at. I don't know why it wasn't clear, but obviously I'm not good at communicating subtleties at the outset of a conversation. I don't know how many times I've started a thread and people have argued with me based on something they thought I was saying which I wasn't, and then finally arguing for a point which I was initially trying to make.

  8. #38
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Fair enough. Maybe it doesn't mean anything. I just thought it was worth exploring to see if it did. And starting the thread had nothing to do with me, I was just using myself as one example of potentially both things. I think it is more than a stereotype. I was thinking both personality and disorders can arise from some sort of common factor, and I wanted to find out what it was. Not that they are the same, or that they are necessarily correlated. If you find the common factor, you can both better treat the disorder and use the information to help certain personalities (or any personality for that matter, as it relates to the common factor) develop to their full potential. Like for instance, there is a website which gives strengths and weaknesses for each type and how to develop the weak areas; INTP advice explicitly addresses some of the same kinds of things Asperger people have trouble with. It basically says to use Ne to observe people, Ti to make sense of their behavior, and then integrate it into Fe in order to learn social skills. What the functions translate into is the same kind of thing you would tell someone with Aspergers. There is the common factor of having trouble with social skills, which doesn't have to have anything to do with a "disorder." What I'm looking for is how trouble with social skills arises, from what cognitive conditions, and then how to teach people to develop themselves according to how those conditions are present in them as an individual.
    Gotcha. J vs P communication styles may have just tripped me up. I apologize for launching on you a bit, and hoped I adequately explained the source of my frustration in previous posts.

    I'm interested in what you've said in the bolded. Assuming the lack of "social skills" is not a function of some type of disorder, then it must be attributable to the fact that some other form of reasoning is preferable to that of social or emotional reasoning. The trick then is in translating emotional cues and making them relevant to the subject, which is gonna depend on how the individual prefers to understand the world. If the individual is an INTP, the assumption is that an Fe preference makes the relevance of social rituals less of an issue and translation moreso. They get the why of social interactions, but not necessarily the how. Improving their social skills means gaining a fluency in the symbols of interpersonal relating, and how those symbols interact such that they end up with something like a functioning "social calculus". This is just an idea, but is it along the lines of what you're talking about?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I'm not taking issue with anything you just wrote, but honestly, how is that quote not equally applicable to INFs who are equally uncommon, or intuitives in general for that matter? And what's compelling in and of itself about the idea that being an uncommon type is going to mean making adjustments to get on with the general population? That just seems like common sense to me.

    Moreover, I think tying the difficulties that an INT might have with communicating and relating to some sorta disorder just crystallizes the issue as opposed to it being a challenge to be explored and met head on. I'd be more interested in a conversation that drew on the strategies the autistic used to function in society as a model that INTs might use to aid in their own adaptations then the more superficial parallel that was made here. If there's a problem, then why not work on fixing it rather than huddling around applying labels to yourselves that should probably be reserved for people with real problems.
    Yes, uncommon types will need adjustments, but I suspect the types of adjustments INFs need will be different from those INTs typically need. It is just common sense, and part of that common sense is learning from people who have similar difficulties as you. What's compelling is to realize that labelling clusters of traits as a "disorder" is counterproductive in that it masks the commonality among people who may really just be exhibiting similar tendencies to different degree, and may even keep people from realizing what can be learned from each other. So, I object to the assumption of a "disorder", but not to making the underlying connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Assuming the lack of "social skills" is not a function of some type of disorder, then it must be attributable to the fact that some other form of reasoning is preferable to that of social or emotional reasoning. The trick then is in translating emotional cues and making them relevant to the subject, which is gonna depend on how the individual prefers to understand the world. If the individual is an INTP, the assumption is that an Fe preference makes the relevance of social rituals less of an issue and translation moreso. They get the why of social interactions, but not necessarily the how. Improving their social skills means gaining a fluency in the symbols of interpersonal relating, and how those symbols interact such that they end up with something like a functioning "social calculus". This is just an idea, but is it along the lines of what you're talking about?
    As I wrote somewhere else (another thread?) I suspect what we are calling a lack of social skills comes about from some combination of how one reasons, absorbs information, communicates, etc. The net effect can be that one fails to notice, or to interpret correctly, or even to value social and emotional input. If someone has enough difficulty with all this that he/she has trouble functioning, that would cross the line into being a "disorder" as opposed to just differing personality traits. "Functioning", however, is a subjective designation, so the line between disorder and different is quite hazy.
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  10. #40
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Gotcha. J vs P communication styles may have just tripped me up. I apologize for launching on you a bit, and hoped I adequately explained the source of my frustration in previous posts.

    I'm interested in what you've said in the bolded. Assuming the lack of "social skills" is not a function of some type of disorder, then it must be attributable to the fact that some other form of reasoning is preferable to that of social or emotional reasoning. The trick then is in translating emotional cues and making them relevant to the subject, which is gonna depend on how the individual prefers to understand the world. If the individual is an INTP, the assumption is that an Fe preference makes the relevance of social rituals less of an issue and translation moreso. They get the why of social interactions, but not necessarily the how. Improving their social skills means gaining a fluency in the symbols of interpersonal relating, and how those symbols interact such that they end up with something like a functioning "social calculus". This is just an idea, but is it along the lines of what you're talking about?
    Yeah, it is. I was thinking just this sort of social calculus, as you put it, is what is needed for both kinds of people. It could be modified a bit for other mbti types. I've done some of this very thing (which is one reason I thought INTP), and even am thinking of writing a book about how to "act normal," which translates as understand and exhibit common social behavior appropriate for one's circumstances (as well as self presentation). Empathy and intuition, as well as emotional intelligence with regard to the self is also necessary in order to become fully functional. So mbti-wise, it is ideal to develop all of one's functions in an order closely resembling the standard (Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te, etc.) for each type, but this could correspond to practical advice for people independent of typology.

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