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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I've often noticed that ENTP's tend to argue things tooth and bone even if they know in their hearts that they may be wrong about something.
    its actually when i think i am probably wrong that i have the highest expectations of the other side's counter arguments, the lighter a rock is the more surprising it is when it does't get kicked once you put it in someone's way.

    for me, this goes hand in hand with getting closer to the truth: the most trustworthy explanations are the ones that would break at the slightest sign of being incorrect, and are given as many opportunities to do so - it also helps if i make sure there are those who'd be invested in breaking it (thus finding someone to argue about it with). i suppose this makes me seem quite fickle, as it makes the road from devil advocacy to advocacy is a very short one.

    essentially, i trust fragility.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Argumentation is not only seen as a tool for greater understanding but also a battle of intellects: the ENTP's intellect vs. the other person's intellect, and I know that if there is one thing that ENTP's hate, it is to look like a fool intellectually.
    this is consistent with the intellectual-ego explanation, but it brings to mind a different possibility altogether:

    what if the overarching principle isn't the answer to why we argue, but rather, the simple fact we do so?

    think about it: you can be a crafter to make your own tools, you can be a crafter to make a living and feed your family, you can be a crafter to compete against others of your trade and show off, you can be a crafter for the innovation opportunities, you can be a crafter for the zen like experience of it.... but in all of those cases, the main reason you became a crafter isn't any of those - you became a crafter because you were good with your hands. it sounds shallow compared to all the other reasons, but its essential to our nature - humans use their strengths, skills and talents like a peacock uses it's tail. the justifications and choice to keep doing it come later.

    maybe we simply find reasons to do it because.. we're good at it.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    i have been wondering where this infamous argument side of entps is, ive never seen it. but maybe thats cause im a nine so i tend to view every view as correct and part of the whole dynamic, so i agree with everything and if something doesnt make sense to me, ill simply be in utter denial of its existence labeled as nonsense. but thats more than likely just my stupidity, of my current understanding of the whole failing to fit everything in due the whole being like a puzzle, and you cant know where to put pieces without adjecent pieces! so i ignore them until i have those adjecent pieces. reality is a huge puzzle for us Ni dominants.

    in fact the word argument doesnt seem to make much sense to me, it doesnt seem to exist in my world O_O.. or maybe im just in denial of it? theres just information exchange, and disruptions are to be ignored and expected. i prefer the word misunderstanding to describe the closest thing to an argument for me.

    sometimes i can crush others, but from my perspective it happens smoothly even though i do it with extreme intensity *whistles*, yeah, in my ninenish comfortable denial =D..

    but i guess cause im an infj, its my role to be the synthesizer. so that might distort my view.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  3. #23
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @Mane

    this is consistent with the intellectual-ego explanation, but it brings to mind a different possibility altogether:

    what if the overarching principle isn't the answer to why we argue, but rather, the simple fact we do so?

    think about it: you can be a crafter to make your own tools, you can be a crafter to make a living and feed your family, you can be a crafter to compete against others of your trade and show off, you can be a crafter for the innovation opportunities, you can be a crafter for the zen like experience of it.... but in all of those cases, the main reason you became a crafter isn't any of those - you became a crafter because you were good with your hands. it sounds shallow compared to all the other reasons, but its essential to our nature - humans use their strengths, skills and talents like a peacock uses it's tail. the justifications and choice to keep doing it come later.

    maybe we simply find reasons to do it because.. we're good at it.
    Makes sense.
    @Vilku

    Really? You've never met an argumentative ENTP? Where have you been man?

  4. #24
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    @Mane



    Makes sense.
    @Vilku

    Really? You've never met an argumentative ENTP? Where have you been man?
    in a box, in a box.. like the rest of people in my culture. and i probably agree with entp's too much for there to be any resemblance of an argument, if i dont, then i pretty much save whatever they said into my head until i have contemplated how it makes sense. although i always try to see what they mean even if i fail in my current understanding to grasp it, cause i know how valuable information an entp's thoughts are.

    its probably really hard to create an argument with me, considering im an infj, nine and so sx. that creates an almost ridiculous combo of a goes along person. in online its different, because i cant rely on my trusty unconscious communication of feelings to create a friendly atmosphere. and here people, because of that, tend to misunderstand ALOT. =|
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    i probably agree with entp's too much for there to be any resemblance of an argument
    that seems impossible: when contemplating something my mind is a bit like a kraken drawing out a tentacle stretching things to every direction i can see while the Ti trial is going - if you agree with tentacles #2 & #3 you will disagree with tentacles #1 & #4. a conflicting view is unavoidable.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that seems impossible: when contemplating something my mind is a bit like a kraken drawing out a tentacle stretching things to every direction i can see while the Ti trial is going - if you agree with tentacles #2 & #3 you will disagree with tentacles #1 & #4. a conflicting view is unavoidable.
    dont underestimate my ability to synthesize knowledge, i will pretty much take any good parts your mumbling has and implement them into my view, and if that thing i build is any good, then you pretty much have no choice but to agree with me. and perhaps i guide your musings into the direction i want them to go so it isnt as shattered with me as it would be with a person who doesnt do this.

    but yeah, i do can remember turning an entp's musings off away as inconsistent information and offering a better explanation in return.

    i just think infj's and entp's were made to think together.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    dont underestimate my ability to synthesize knowledge, i will pretty much take any good parts your mumbling has and implement them into my view, and if that thing i build is any good, then you pretty much have no choice but to agree with me. and perhaps i guide your musings into the direction i want them to go so it isnt as shattered with me as it would be with a person who doesnt do this.

    but yeah, i do can remember turning an entp's musings off away as inconsistent information and offering a better explanation in return.

    i just think infj's and entp's were made to think together.
    Is Obie Wan an INFJ?



    (my contribution to this thread)
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  8. #28
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    I know someone who likes to argue a lot but is clearly not entp.

    How do you explain that ?
    Because being argumentative as a trait has nothing to do with whether you value Ne and Ti as your two preferred ego functions...? I'm argumentative as hell too or can be, my Jungian functions are Fi and Ne.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #29
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Is Obie Wan an INFJ?



    (my contribution to this thread)
    i would assume he is, cause theres hell alot of infj behavior implemented in him. i wouldnt like to think of myself that much alike to him, but all male infj's seem to be as dull as obi wan, although id rather see myself as an enfp which im not.. =/
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

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