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  1. #11
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    I once had an ENTP neighbor who I talked to a lot. We could talk for hours about nothing and sometimes, something, but never really arriving anywhere. He was a most excellent devils advocate. He was mid 50s, bachelors in math and chemistry, with a career background in real estate... Here is my take on his particular need to argue.

    Something would interest him. Think of it as a point. Before he could accept it he would have to circle the point, in his mind. Gather information and test thoughts out. I imagine this to be traveling in a circle around the object of interest. As he was circling the object he'd go off on tangents, forming another circle. Think of a fractal. Eventually he'd arrive at a conclusion, close the tangent and continue his circling. He would become very obsessive about this object after time. Very consuming of his time/energy. Eventually he'd arrive at a conclusion about the object of interest. At this point he'd lose almost complete interest. Another shiny has drawn his attention. and besides he now "understands" the object.

    It is during this test thoughts out and circling that he would solicit opinions and while doing so make you prove him wrong, which he didn't mind, he actually liked that (usually), since he could close a tangent/circle and continue searching for understanding of this object of interest. He'd argue, but not for arguments sake, but rather, to get to the bottom of the matter, when he was focused.

    He is some sorta theist (non denominational) ftr, me, I'm an atheist and we'd "talk" for hours on the subject. Quite enjoyable. He is no longer my neighbor and I miss those long talks about the world we live in.

    Vaya con dios Paul! hehe
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Shitty theory.

    Arguing for the sake of it is an indication of immaturity and not limited to ENTPs. If the other party can actually offer intellectual insight and help fostering exploring pov's regardless of taking sides can be interesting and addictive [ like a dopamine source] but that requires/implies reciprocity in drive/skill/enjoyment.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #13
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #14
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Ne doms gather information through external engagement, and we like to take up potentially-useful ideas, try them on, stretch them, bend them, and otherwise play with them in the process of integrating them into our conceptual schema, so of course engaging with others is a good way to do that. ENTPs have stronger T than F, making refining logic more important than harmonizing. It seems to follow naturally that ENTPs would be a bit argumentative, and almost always in a very playful way. Tension points are where knowledge is debated and truth is revealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tantastaafl28
    What is more effecient and elegant than getting others to argue with us for the purposes of testing out our arguments so we can improve them?
    Yeah, that. Devil's advocacy.

  5. #15
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    sounds like the sunken cost fallacy.
    good point. Same thing jumped at me when reading the OP
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #16
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    there's a saying in hebrew - "a knife is best sharpened by the blade of another"
    I suspect its also found in homoerotic literature.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I suspect its also found in homoerotic literature.
    Nah that's a pork sword.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    I think you need to reassess your sexuality lol jk. I kid only. Umm, yea well, this theory you say makes a lot of sense. And I'll add as ENTPs are visionaries...that tied to their desire to understand all things, if they understand something clearly, then it's probably going to be based in objectivity. And with that strong intellectual understanding, might work hard utilizing Ne and Ti to share or clarify the vision.



    Like as with hoarders?
    Well thank you sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Well I'm probably not ENTP, but anyway, I think of arguments as a refiner's fire that really test the structure of a thing and mold it to remove impurities until the properties of perfection emerge. It urges us to challenge things and make them better. Alternatively, I don't believe arguments should be used to gain an advantage over somebody, nor should they be used to erect barriers. The purpose should be constructive, not damaging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    maybe the sunken cost can be explained by our ego's? I've noted in the past that FJs tend to have a moral-identity (and are offended when its threatened), perhaps we have an intellectual one? maybe someone counter arguing our reasoning is on some level threatening to some deeply ingrained beliefs about our intellectual competence, a belief so ingrained in the Ti-judger mental development that we might not even pay it any attention, rather instead, we take it so much for granted that we put it in the background.
    to put my new theory on the table, think about what the habit of arguing implies: by doing so, by probing around the argument in the dance of Ti, we are essentially assuming that we can understand any reasoning, that there is no software too resource-heavy for our hardware to comprehend, no file too heavily encrypted for us to process.

    it's like a silent hubris in the background:
    "roses are red, the sky is blue, and i'm a freaking genius"
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    there's a saying in hebrew - "a knife is best sharpened by the blade of another"

    but there's more to it then simply becoming a better arguer - i've found myself changing my opinions and views again and again through good arguments, the more a possibility gets exposed to the bashing of counter arguments and seemingly survives, the more i trust it to be closer to the truth - and when i failed to break someone else's, i will adopt it.

    Ok this makes a lot of sense that we argue as a refinement process: we argue in order to come to a greater understanding of something. I remember that I was reading about Socrates (ENTP) who would literally walk around the streets purposefully trying to start arguments with people, just to obtain new knowledge through arguing. However, there has to be something more to this as well though, because I've often noticed that ENTP's tend to argue things tooth and bone even if they know in their hearts that they may be wrong about something. Argumentation is not only seen as a tool for greater understanding but also a battle of intellects: the ENTP's intellect vs. the other person's intellect, and I know that if there is one thing that ENTP's hate, it is to look like a fool intellectually.

  9. #19
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    I know someone who likes to argue a lot but is clearly not entp.

    How do you explain that ?

  10. #20
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    I know someone who likes to argue a lot but is clearly not entp.

    How do you explain that ?
    What type are they?

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