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  1. #11
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Do more sports.

  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Could you lean in the direction of INFJ? Strong Ni-doms can seem ambiguous on the T/F pole. I survive sensitivity by subjecting it to analysis in a highly distanced internal mindset. Because I've always wanted to understand humanity and make sense of its irrationality and randomness, I learned to create that inner analytical world to piece it all together. As I've done this, I've learned to realize that on one level nothing is personal, but everything is an expression of the other individual's life, genetics, and experiences. This leads to less pain on an individual, personal level, but it can lead to more with its reinforcement of a sense of existential isolation in which we can never fully comprehend one another.

    Also, one thing that has helped me immensely when I am invested in the response from one person, when I desire a friendship or relationship very badly and am hurt by their distance or rejection, I've learned to invest time in multiple people. I find as many people as I need to fill the level of response I would have needed from one person. The moment I feel lonely, I seek out yet another person. That has helped me socially quite a bit to feel stabilized and less lonely at many times in my life. Also, risks are not nearly as hard to take when they are not all invested in just one person.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #13
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    Hi all. I'm trying to make some improvements to myself, and I need some good advising. First, some background information to give you context:

    I'm a 28 year old INTJ male. My childhood, teenager, and young adult years were much like the typical INTJ's: Kinda lonely and fucked up. I was very socially maladapted. I got picked on a fair bit (in high school and elementary that is). I had typical INTJ problems. I did not understand human behavior. I don't understand why people did what they did. I didn't really know how to have a regular conversation (it just didn't make sense to me. I didn't have an artistic rhythm or flow. I was just straight logic). I didn't have any understanding of my own emotions. It was a mess, and not a very pleasant one. At about age 25 I started seriously developing my feelings side. I consciously made the decision to do it. I just felt like there was "something to all this feelings stuff". It was a wild ride. There was a lot of depression involved. I learned a lot about myself and others. With myself, it was a struggle to accept who I was. I had this idea of what kind of human being would be ideal, and that I had to be that human being. I always tried to be perfect, and to have perfect control over myself. I saw how that doesn't work. There was a lot of internal conflict. I didn't know who I was, I didn't know who I should or wanted to be. I see now that I'm, for the most part, a regular human being with talents and with flaws. I accept that, I feel OK about that.

    When it came to my judgments of others, I was really shocked at how irrational people were. I was shocked at how little principle people had, and how little they actually thought on their own. I couldn't believe it. How could people make so many irrational and purely emotionally driven decisions? Take vendettas for example. Why try to hurt someone who makes you angry? Hurting them is illogical, it doesn't help you. But people do. People do all kinds of irrational things driven purely by emotion. People don't really have principle, not to the level that I thought should be expected. Most people's sense of principles is taken from society at large. Whatever is the 'norm' is what they accept to be acceptable. People don't make independent assessments. Eventually, I came to have more acceptance for this. I'm still swallowing it.

    All this personal growth and development has turned me into an extremely emotionally sensitive person. I see a good and a bad side to this. Being sensitive allows me to be sensitive to the needs of others. Being sensitive also means that my feelings are easily hurt. I want to retain the good side of sensitivity, while getting rid of the downside. In other words, I don't want to be such a little bitch anymore. I don't want to be so easily offended or hurt or bothered. I don't mean that something bothers me and I just keep it inside. I mean literally for stuff to not even register as something that would bother me. ENTP and ENTJ types are pretty good at this. I'm looking for some advising on how to accomplish this internal rewiring. It's a pretty drastic change I think. It's like altering my personality. But I need this!
    I've studied Shambala Buddhism off and on for several years. A central idea to its philosophy is the notion of a Warrior's Heart. That what we should all strive to do is possess a kind of perfect rawness in our hearts, a sensitivity so exquisite that a feather's touch could bring tears to your eyes. This is desirable because with that sensitivity comes openess, compassion, and connection with those around us. The thing that makes it a Warrior's Heart is not just the sensitivity, but the courage that is required to remain that open when there's so much out there that can do you harm. To that end, if you're already a sensitive person, then what's necessary is to discover the faith that you are greater than the potential pain that could be inflicted on you. Pain is a much a part of life as pleasure, disappointment, love, or any of the other more potent parts of the human experience. You shut pain out at the risk of living less. Your problem, BE, is not that you are sensitive, but that you are afraid. Fear is something to be mastered; not succumbed to.

    My advice is first and foremost to own your sensitivity. It's not something you're ever going to be able to rid yourself of without seriously warping yourself, because it's essential to who you are. Second, work on mastering your fear of pain. Think of the famous Litany against Fear from Dune:

    I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
    Only I will remain.

    From your description of yourself, you're a very decent person, which is something to be proud of. Once you learn to master your fear, you'll be more capable of pursuing those positive, sensitive impulses that you have in a way that is both meaningful and impactful. It will make you powerful and beholden to no one but your own sense of justice. That will be a brilliant place to be once you reach it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    Your avatar is a chipmunk riding a snake, you don't need to change.
    Also, this. Times a billion.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  4. #14
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    @Rex all that compassion talk coming one of the coldest hardest biatches on vent. or here.

    oh, the irony.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #15
    Riva
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    Aren't INTJs the kings of compartmentalization? Or are we seeing a breakdown of one here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Do more sports.
    This actually is a good idea. Or hit the gym. You'd start feeling a bit narcissistic which might be a cure for your itch.

  6. #16
    On The blessblessblessblesster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It means your Fi is still developing. You're experiencing at 28 what FPs experience for like the first 25-30 or so years of their lives in some form or another.

    As an FP, I tried to over rely on Te instead, and that made me very unhappy, like I was trying to deaden my sensitivity or cover it in rocks. That isn't the answer either.

    For me it was about developing Ni and learning to put things in perspective and to stop taking it personally. Taoism and some Zen Buddhist principles have helped me tremendously.

    It's not about you, it's about them. When people behave xyz, have compassion for them, but don't let it touch you. It's very challenging.

    As an INTJ, though, you're probably going to be sensitive or bothered about different facets of humanity than I am as an ISFP. You're probably more bothered by people being irrational than I am. I am more bothered by things like narcissism and extreme selfishness.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Could you lean in the direction of INFJ? Strong Ni-doms can seem ambiguous on the T/F pole. I survive sensitivity by subjecting it to analysis in a highly distanced internal mindset. Because I've always wanted to understand humanity and make sense of its irrationality and randomness, I learned to create that inner analytical world to piece it all together. As I've done this, I've learned to realize that on one level nothing is personal, but everything is an expression of the other individual's life, genetics, and experiences. This leads to less pain on an individual, personal level, but it can lead to more with its reinforcement of a sense of existential isolation in which we can never fully comprehend one another.

    Also, one thing that has helped me immensely when I am invested in the response from one person, when I desire a friendship or relationship very badly and am hurt by their distance or rejection, I've learned to invest time in multiple people. I find as many people as I need to fill the level of response I would have needed from one person. The moment I feel lonely, I seek out yet another person. That has helped me socially quite a bit to feel stabilized and less lonely at many times in my life. Also, risks are not nearly as hard to take when they are not all invested in just one person.
    At heart, I am super INTJ. However, I think you read me as leaning in the direction of INFJ because over the last 3 years I've spent a LOT of time with some INFJ friends. I wanted to learn their skillz. And now, I have improved people reading and empathy and other assorted goodies. Lately I've had a raging hard-on for ENTJs and ENTPs, because I want their skillz

    I think I understand what Fifi and Marmie are recommending (nicknaming people being one of the "assorted goodies" I picked up). The "reinforcement of a sense of existential isolation in which we can never fully comprehend one another." part makes me really think that I understand it. I would change the way I view other people. I would view them as completely separate entities from me. My sense of connectedness to humans would be extinguished. We would all be our own islands. Their words and actions would reach my eyes and ears, but they wouldn't touch my emotions. This sounds a lot like what a close INFJ friend of mine did. I came to really resent her, because she would be pretty insensitive to others (i.e. me), but still very sensitive to getting pissed off and annoyed. And she just went further and further in that direction. I know that everyone's selfish on some level, but I felt like she was deliberately moving in a direction that would make her more so.

    Also, what happens to me when I feel rejected is I start to feel resentment. This feeling of resentment is logic-neutral. There's no correct or incorrect to it. I have a part of me that has quite a bit of resentment towards humanity at large. There's a nice soft warm loving part of me that wants to help people, but that bitter angry part of me is, in this recent year, taking over, and making me feel like people are not worth liking or helping. Seeking out lots of people isn't going to change that. I WANT to be giving, but people seem to mostly give me more and more reasons to be extremely cynical. It's like you have to have something that someone else wants, for you to be worthwhile to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've studied Shambala Buddhism off and on for several years. A central idea to its philosophy is the notion of a Warrior's Heart. That what we should all strive to do is possess a kind of perfect rawness in our hearts, a sensitivity so exquisite that a feather's touch could bring tears to your eyes. This is desirable because with that sensitivity comes openess, compassion, and connection with those around us. The thing that makes it a Warrior's Heart is not just the sensitivity, but the courage that is required to remain that open when there's so much out there that can do you harm. To that end, if you're already a sensitive person, then what's necessary is to discover the faith that you are greater than the potential pain that could be inflicted on you. Pain is a much a part of life as pleasure, disappointment, love, or any of the other more potent parts of the human experience. You shut pain out at the risk of living less. Your problem, BE, is not that you are sensitive, but that you are afraid. Fear is something to be mastered; not succumbed to.

    My advice is first and foremost to own your sensitivity. It's not something you're ever going to be able to rid yourself of without seriously warping yourself, because it's essential to who you are. Second, work on mastering your fear of pain. Think of the famous Litany against Fear from Dune:


    From your description of yourself, you're a very decent person, which is something to be proud of. Once you learn to master your fear, you'll be more capable of pursuing those positive, sensitive impulses that you have in a way that is both meaningful and impactful. It will make you powerful and beholden to no one but your own sense of justice. That will be a brilliant place to be once you reach it.






    Also, this. Times a billion.
    This post was amazing. I felt a physiological rush, like I was going to cry (but didn't, because I'm not a little bitch). It's like you see through me better than I can see myself. It's been a while since that's happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Aren't INTJs the kings of compartmentalization? Or are we seeing a breakdown of one here?
    I think poorly emotionally developed INTJs (which is most INTJs for their entire lives, imo) tend to be very emotionally unaware. They definitely do feel, they just don't acknowledge a lot of their feelings. They believe that they can think themselves out of any feelings.

    I believe that INFJs would be even better with compartmentalization. You need a very sharp emotional awareness to be able to effectively put feelings aside. I'd say INTJs do it the most, but they suck at it, they just like to think they're good at it. Emotions affect INTJs so strongly, yet many are in denial about that.

  7. #17

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    The key is to be honest with others and yourself about your sensitivity. I don't mean talk about your feelings, unless it comes up. I mean just accept it. You don't become less sensitive by trying to suppress it but by accepting it and taking it as a matter of fact. And working with it, from it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I had a similar experience. You have to go to that nice pure space where you realize that humans are molecular processes that have yourself included. To have emotion response to that situation is like ahab seeking revenge on the white whale. The emotion will not change the reality only your perception of it
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  9. #19
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Sensitivity alone isn't a problem or unbearable; it only gets pushed into that hard-to-manage territory when it is compounded by shame or the notion that the sensitivity shouldn't be. Actually, the same goes for all emotions in my experience. They're not bad when accepted, but only when you think there is something wrong with them.

    Good for you, for finding a new and fascinating part of yourself. No need to go back.

  10. #20
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    At heart, I am super INTJ. However, I think you read me as leaning in the direction of INFJ because over the last 3 years I've spent a LOT of time with some INFJ friends. I wanted to learn their skillz. And now, I have improved people reading and empathy and other assorted goodies. Lately I've had a raging hard-on for ENTJs and ENTPs, because I want their skillz

    I think I understand what Fifi and Marmie are recommending (nicknaming people being one of the "assorted goodies" I picked up). The "reinforcement of a sense of existential isolation in which we can never fully comprehend one another." part makes me really think that I understand it. I would change the way I view other people. I would view them as completely separate entities from me. My sense of connectedness to humans would be extinguished. We would all be our own islands. Their words and actions would reach my eyes and ears, but they wouldn't touch my emotions. This sounds a lot like what a close INFJ friend of mine did. I came to really resent her, because she would be pretty insensitive to others (i.e. me), but still very sensitive to getting pissed off and annoyed. And she just went further and further in that direction. I know that everyone's selfish on some level, but I felt like she was deliberately moving in a direction that would make her more so.
    I think I see the logic in that conclusion about existential isolation, but I process it differently. It has actually helped me feel less resentment at times because I don't feel like I have to own or internalize the negativity of someone else, and it is really easy for me to internalize negativity. When I realize it isn't personal, but just an expression of their own angst and pain, it leaves more freedom from personal defensiveness and leaves me open ideally to have compassion for the pain they experienced. I sometimes slip into the former mindset. If you start with enough of a drive towards empathy, then the limits to interpersonal comprehension can leave an overall feeling of isolation, but ironically it is that very understanding that provides the best chance at a connection and deep understanding. By fully understanding our own isolation, we can better understand and sympathize with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    Also, what happens to me when I feel rejected is I start to feel resentment. This feeling of resentment is logic-neutral. There's no correct or incorrect to it. I have a part of me that has quite a bit of resentment towards humanity at large. There's a nice soft warm loving part of me that wants to help people, but that bitter angry part of me is, in this recent year, taking over, and making me feel like people are not worth liking or helping. Seeking out lots of people isn't going to change that. I WANT to be giving, but people seem to mostly give me more and more reasons to be extremely cynical. It's like you have to have something that someone else wants, for you to be worthwhile to them.
    I've definitely struggled with feelings of despair about the insanity and cruelty of humanity and have spent a lot of time thinking about it. One thing I have noticed is that from a philosophical standpoint, the degree to which an individual is judged is related to the degree of control that is assumed they have over their life. A sense of a person's "goodness" is related to the degree to which we assume they have the freedom to choose and control their own destiny. There is not a way to prove that we have freedom of choice, although it can be demonstrated that choice is constrained by genetics and circumstance. While it is possible that we choose our destinies to some extent, it is also possible that we do not and that we are essentially observers of the processes that we interact with, and what we think is choice is actually just an illusion for a completely deterministic and complex system. If the latter is the case (or even a possibility), that is a reason to have compassion for even the worst of humanity. What a horrific plight to be the observer of cruelty and insanity. This is also a reason to feel absolutely no self-righteousness in relationship to others. I don't actually have a conclusion about free-will, except that it is at the least constrained. This has given me a logical reason to have more patience and compassion regardless of the person's character and behavior.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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