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[INTJ] Ask an INTJ

Edgar

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When are you not confident? Be honest here. It's said that INTJ is among one of the most confident types but there must be something that makes you rather unsure of yourself.

A lot of INTJ guys are not very confident when it comes to girls.

Not me though. I'm totally confident about that.
 

EJCC

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When are you not confident? Be honest here. It's said that INTJ is among one of the most confident types but there must be something that makes you rather unsure of yourself.
My INTJ friend and former roommate is not at all confident with relationships, be they with friends or SOs. Two examples that I can think of:
1) She never knows if/when to call someone back for a second date. Sometimes she waits two or three weeks!
2) She doesn't consider anyone to be her friend unless they explicitly tell her: "We're friends".
 

skylights

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It would be illogical to deny reality, and such a useful one at that.

On the other hand, we could just be trolling.

:rofl1:

The funny thing is this is, I suspect, one of those Schrodinger's cat comments that can either be totally serious or a joke, depending on how the situation plays out. Both at once until the hypothetical collapses into one reality.

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION], since you're an ENFP and involved in this conversation -- how do ENFPs feel about small talk? Seems like people who use tert or inferior Fi (like me and Coriolis) dislike it for the most part.

I don't mind it, but I tend to launch it straight into deep talk, so maybe that's why I don't mind it. I don't think I have any ability to do sustained small talk. I'll either keep bringing up other stuff, or wander off and think about something else instead. To be fair, I don't think most people like small talk. Those who tend to do it, I think understand its social importance in terms of smoothing initial awkwardness and getting a read on the other person's feelings and personality. I don't think anyone really just likes small talk for the sake of small talk.

The reason why I chose the metaphor is that pieces in a tessellation, if it were like a puzzle, are identically shaped and easy to switch around. I was imagining them in all different colors (and not as identical; I should have clarified). Say you've got a blue piece (representing a particular piece of Si data that fits into the general whole), and when you look at the tessellation, you get used to that particular piece in that particular section being blue. Then the piece breaks, or something falls on it and dents it, or it becomes flawed in some other way. Technically speaking, with Si, it is very easy to get rid of that piece of data and replace it with a new one; the problem is that it's a red piece, not a blue one, and even though the piece fits in perfectly, it takes a little while for my Ne to get used to the tessellation as a whole, without that blue piece being there. The picture is different now.

Interesting. :eek:

The bolded is so interesting! Maybe I've been projecting this whole time, when I thought INTJs acted like that while in the mindset of "They're beyond hope anyway, so I might as well have fun with them". But I guess it makes sense, then, because it is leaving their options open in the Ni style, leaving room for them to exercise their free will and either, as you said, redeem themselves, or give themselves more rope on their noose.

I know that at a certain point my ENFJ friend will just "back away" from people, and observe peacefully as they either fix themselves for themselves or just go on and hang themselves, so to speak. Regardless of which it ends up being, that distance gives her safety and she no longer claims responsibility for anything that goes on with them. It's like she has written them out of her picture, so she doesn't really care anymore. Curiously, this can make her nicer to them. I remember one incident where she was an RA of this girl with behavior issues, and she was very strict with her, though consoling, and she really cared about this girl. Eventually the girl succumbed to her issues and had to go to a school for behavioral change instead of our university, and suddenly the ENFJ and her became casual friends. It was bizarre to me, but makes sense in a JeNi light. She was now out of the picture, so to speak. It didn't matter what happened to her, because my friend was no longer responsible. So it didn't matter how my friend acted with her once it was certain she wouldn't be staying at the university.

I only know two ESFJs (and I don't know them very well), and I've never heard them speak poorly of anything-- neither of them ever complains, neither of them ever gets vocally upset (because they both silently fume, like I do, when they're angry), and they focus 99% of their social energy on other people when they're chatting with them. But of the three or four ENFJs I know, there is one who acts just like the ESFJs you describe, to the point that I mistook her for an ExTJ. (Of course, she's a 3w2, and the other ENFJs I know are 2w1 or 2w3, so that might make a difference in the drive and directness of their Fe.)

I feel like ENFJs have more of a distance to them than ESFJs... I think it's the mind-removal of Ni. The space inherent there. Sometimes it comes across as coldness, depending on their enneatype... my 3w4 friend I would call "cold" to even "icy", at times, whereas my 2w3 coworker I would call "slippery" in that he will seem to constantly change his opinion to match whoever he's talking with. They're almost always operating at that second layer of N as well as at the primary level of attention, which is simultaneously an advantage (big picture processing) and a disadvantage (inability to invest their full mental energy in reality). I feel this with all NJ types - more of a gap between them and me than with SJs. I think this is part of why I feel more comfortable with SJs, generally - the mind-gap with NJs puts me on edge. Which isn't really fair, perhaps, because I have that mind-gap too, but I don't have very explicit goal-directed action, to tie into what you asked about perception. It creeps me out a little (sorry, INTJs) that I know they are (1) distanced from me at a primary-perception level and (2) possessing an agenda that probably includes me but I don't know what it is, and probably will not get to know. Anyway, my ENFJ 3w4 friend could easily be mistaken either for an NTJ or an I. I suspect her father to be an INTJ 8w9 and suspect his influence is part of this. You can tell she is MUCH more like him than like her ESFP mom (they are divorced).

I have DEFINITELY seen it in NTJs. :yes: ENTJs do it very skillfully, I think. Though many of the INTJs I know will come across as suspiciously vague or curt when they leave out information.

I am not surprised by this, to be honest.

That makes sense. How would you say it affects your perception?

I think most of all, I take in information for the sake of information, and so I tend to just look at what is most interesting to me, and less looking at information for what will be useful to me (though of course I believe that all information is incredibly useful). I don't apply a priority lens first or even second, unlike EJs or IJs, respectively. So I think the reason Si is inferior to me is I will collect static detail data at the level to which I need it to make sense of my Ne patterns, but will not seek it explicitly otherwise. I somewhat understand the INTJ perspective on it being tiring to be forthright in that it is tiring to have to describe things in exact reality when we perceive in large subtle intuition patterns (and for an NF, overall big picture feeling "atmospheres"), but I do also find it easier to just forthrightly state what I see than to try to edit it to a certain picture that I want to present, because I don't put very much mental energy into creating an idea of what I want - more like I spend most of my mental energy looking at what is around me and trying to find all the possibilities that could exist, and then I use Fi to decide which possibilities resonate best with my internal self, and align myself with those. So basically I perceive for the sake of discovery and engage Si to the extent I must have it to be able to make connections - and the more Si data I have, the more refined and correct my connections will be, which is why I should really work on my Si even though it often feels like listening to too much unnecessary data. I think Te doesn't help in that realm, either. Te is totally like, COME ONNNN I JUST WANT TO DOOOO ITTTT.

How does inferior Se manifest in INTJs?

Inferior Se manifests in many different ways. Some of which I'm aware of:

  • When I'm stressed, I feel the need to take a hot shower. Many people might say a similar thing, but I doubt it manifests to the extent it does to me. I will take a hot shower, get out, and then want to get right back in. I don't want it to stop. As long as I'm feeling soothing hot water, I'm not trippin about whatever's going on. Often times it actually allows me to look at the matter in a clearer light, clear my head, get back into a more productive zone. (a similar thing might happen with sex or masturbation, depending on what's easy/available at the moment. This isn't as consistent as the shower thing, though.)

  • A sensitivity to unpleasing sensory phenomena, whether a sight, sound, a smell, a taste, a temperature, a texture, a position, having someone touch me, etc. This one can be pretty bad, cuz it's highly uncontrollable, can rear its head in relationship situations, wherein the other person is trying to cuddle, or is touching me in a certain way, or a number of other things, and, I dunno, I can have just a really nasty visceral reaction caused by frustration over the other person not realizing how uncomfortable/displeased they're making me. It's not uniform, either; something that I'll enjoy at one time will be something that will bother me at another. There's something disgustingly immature, imo, about expecting the other person to realize the discomfort they're causing you, but, at the same time, part of me says that the person should be attuned to such a thing. The thing is, then my rational brain kicks back in and recognizes how absurd it is to expect the other person to always "just know". I'd say this is one of the uglier manifestations of it.

  • I'm also kind of just generally a hornball. My ENFP ex used to almost get seriously annoyed when we would walk around a video store and I'd always stop and check out the C-rated boob flicks. I can't really help myself. If the cover is enticing, I'm gunna pick it up, look at the back to see if there are any more hot pics, and there's really no two ways about it. With Se in the demonic position, I don't think she appreciated my conundrum.

Curiously, I experience similar quirks, perhaps as a shared result of inferior Sensing, or also perhaps as a shared result of 6 sx. When I am very stressed or tired, I revel in overwhelming physical sensation, like showering, massage, yoga, comfort food, and sex. It "shuts down" my mind chatter. I suspect this is 6-related for me more than S-related. I have a hard time with loud noises, very bright lights, strobe lights, and strong smells. I have to encourage boys to be slow and intentional about how they touch me because I hate fast or uncertain touches, like awkward brushes or grabs or prods. I'm a hornball too. Oopsie. :blush:
 

Circle

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My INTJ friend and former roommate is not at all confident with relationships, be they with friends or SOs. Two examples that I can think of:
1) She never knows if/when to call someone back for a second date. Sometimes she waits two or three weeks!
2) She doesn't consider anyone to be her friend unless they explicitly tell her: "We're friends".

This sounds exactly like all the INTJs I know. I suppose #1 because they are careful with others' feelings and also so self-sufficient. And, #2 because they don't like to make assumptions? INTJs are awesome.
 

Mia.

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It creeps me out a little (sorry, INTJs) that I know they are (1) distanced from me at a primary-perception level and (2) possessing an agenda that probably includes me but I don't know what it is, and probably will not get to know.

Hehe.
 

skylights

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I'm shifting this from the Signs of Ni thread to here:


You are only a figment of our imagination.

To the extent that you do not comply with our vision, that is a problem with you, not with our vision.

:wizfreak:

Otherwise known as
Solipsism.

So how does anyone trust you? :thinking:

But seriously, how do you account for the right to free will for those who you love and respect? (Especially a significant other.) Do you let them help you craft their role in your vision? Or do they just happen to fall into your vision? What happens if they depart from your vision?




:popc1:

Spoil plz. :)
 

Zarathustra

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My INTJ friend and former roommate is not at all confident with relationships, be they with friends or SOs. Two examples that I can think of:
1) She never knows if/when to call someone back for a second date. Sometimes she waits two or three weeks!
2) She doesn't consider anyone to be her friend unless they explicitly tell her: "We're friends".

This sounds exactly like all the INTJs I know. I suppose #1 because they are careful with others' feelings and also so self-sufficient. And, #2 because they don't like to make assumptions? INTJs are awesome.

You know, I'd say you're being pretty forgiving here, regarding our ineptitude when it comes to socializing/relating, but the truth is, you've actually kinda hit the nail on the head. That's not to say there aren't more negative ways of shining a light on it that aren't true as well, but, getting to what someone asked earlier about what we wish more people recognized about us, I'd say this is a pretty good one. It's not what we have a reputation for, and we can be the exact opposite in certain cases, but I would say that I do try to be careful with peoples' feelings (more than most people, imo), and I don't like to make assumptions about people, or, perhaps better put, I don't like to act on assumptions that I'm not yet sure are true. I give people their time and space, give them an opportunity to send the right signals, and, if they do, great, if they don't, too bad. Forcing myself on somebody is not something I'm interested in.

I'm a hornball too. Oopsie. :blush:

As [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] once said: ENFPs are all talk in this regard...
 

Circle

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You know, I'd say you're being pretty forgiving here, regarding our ineptitude when it comes to socializing/relating, but the truth is, you've actually kinda hit the nail on the head. That's not to say there aren't more negative ways of shining a light on this that aren't true as well, but, getting to what someone asked earlier about what we wish more people recognized about us, I'd say this is a pretty good one. It's not what we have a reputation for, and we can be the exact opposite in certain cases, but I would say that I do try to be careful with peoples' feelings, and I don'y like to make assumptions about people, or, perhaps better put, I don't like to act on assumptions that I'm not yet sure are true. I give people their time and space, give them an opportunity to send the right signals, and, if they do, great, if they don't, too bad. Forcing myself on somebody is not something I'm interested in.

INTJs are among the most respectful and dignified types I know. They err on the side of giving enough space and consideration. Though this can cause them problems they at least don't inflict themselves on others, in most cases, until the friendship is proven. They are great! :happy2:
 

skylights

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As [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] once said: ENFPs are all talk in this regard...

:laugh:

That's what you'd like to think. You're just jealous you don't have one. :)

But seriously, nah, I even surprised myself. I had no idea. Just when you think you're innocent...
 

Zarathustra

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I'm shifting this from the Signs of Ni thread to here:

Nice.

I thought to myself last night that this should occur.

So how does anyone trust you? :thinking:

But seriously, how do you account for the right to free will for those who you love and respect? (Especially a significant other.) Do you let them help you craft their role in your vision? Or do they just happen to fall into your vision? What happens if they depart from your vision?

Sorry, I thought it was clear from my response last night that I was joking (mocking what would be [and can be] an unhealthy way for an (I)N(T)J to go about living their life/engaging in relationships [or any human being for that matter {we just might be more disposed to it, due to Ni}]), but, based on some of the responses in that thread, apparently it was not.

*will be back hear with full response shortly*

INTJs are among the most respectful and dignified types I know. They err on the side of giving enough space and consideration. Though this can cause them problems they at least don't inflict themselves on others, in most cases, until the friendship is proven. They are great! :happy2:

Wow... interesting that you would notice this... I generally feel this goes completely unnoticed... it is true and regrettable that it does cause us problems, and, frankly, it can be really annoying at times, and it's easy to write it off to other things (insecurity being a primary one [and I can't say there's no truth to it]), but, I think the most accurate depiction is that we put a higher premium on giving people their space and consideration than others, and so, to get us over that hump, there's got to be a pretty damn clear sign that the person wants us over that hump. Honestly, this is the source of some of the greatest perturbation in my life; I appreciate that you not only recognize it, but appreciate it. Not sure if I've ever seen that before.

Spoil plz. :)

Yes, do spoil.

[MENTION=15004]Mia.[/MENTION]
 

skylights

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Sorry, I thought it was clear from my response last night that I was joking (mocking what would be [and can be] an unhealthy way for an (I)N(T)J to go about living their life/engaging in relationships [or any human being for that matter {we just might be more disposed to it, due to Ni}]), but, based on some of the responses in that thread, apparently it was not.

I couldn't decide... figured it was one of those jokes that's true and a joke at the same time. Unfortunately, I have known Ni users who do seem to believe this.
 

Circle

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Wow... interesting that you would notice this... I generally feel this goes completely unnoticed... it is true and regrettable that it does cause us problems, and, frankly, it can be really annoying at times, and it's easy to write it off to other things (insecurity being a primary one [and I can't say there's no truth to it]), but, I think the most accurate depiction is that we put a higher premium on giving people their space and consideration than others, and so, to get us over that hump, there's got to be a pretty damn clear sign that the person wants us over that hump. Honestly, this is the source of some of the greatest perturbation in my life; I appreciate that you not only recognize it, but appreciate it. Not sure if I've ever seen that before.

It might go unnoticed because it takes equal consideration to recognize the space granted. We have trouble noticing the non-obvious and INTJs are not known as chest-beaters, trumpeting every selfless act. If anything, they are masters of self-discipline and believe that Virtue is its own reward. INTJs can be highly value-centered and extremely disciplined and scrupulous with regard to their behavior involving other people.

So, how could this be improved? Perhaps by communicating more directly in a considerate and spacious manner? It might help to write little notes or to find gracious ways of initiating communication. It is an interesting conundrum.
 

Zarathustra

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I couldn't decide... figured it was one of those jokes that's true and a joke at the same time. Unfortunately, I have known Ni users who do seem to believe this.

Oh, well, you were right; it was both.

But it was both in the sense that I was mocking us for doing it/if we do it.

I have definitely done it in the past, and it's one of the things we need to work on in relationships.

See, it's problematic when we lose sight of who the person really is, and just expect them to conform to this role that we envision for them.

But, at the same time, our vision is all-encompassing and all-important, so, frankly, where I stand now: if you don't fit, then I must quit.

This has to do with my specific life path, the relationships I've had, and the decisions I've made around them.

I do feel, though, that it's the right path for any person/NJ.

You need to find someone who does fit into your vision.

It shouldn't be you trying to fit a square into a circle.

And you most definitely should not lose sight of who they really are.

You just need to find someone whose actual self does fit into the role you envision.

And, as you pointed to, you should certainly be looking to let them flourish into whomever they want/are supposed to be.

It's all about finding someone with whom you're truly compatible; your vision of them is compatible with their vision of themselves.

Anything else, in my experience, leads to one or both people (either successfully or unsuccessfully) compromising their vision.

Sometimes that compromise might be a good thing, but, other times, it might absolutely be the wrong thing.

If you compromise to the point that it's no longer your vision, and your vision matters to you...

Well, I'd say that's when you've gone too far.
 

Zarathustra

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It might go unnoticed because it takes equal consideration to recognize the space granted. We have trouble noticing the non-obvious and INTJs are not known as chest-beaters, trumpeting every selfless act. If anything, they are masters of self-discipline and believe that Virtue is its own reward. INTJs can be highly value-centered and extremely disciplined and scrupulous with regard to their behavior involving other people.

How do you know this stuff?

The only person I've met with this kind of insight is [MENTION=5494]Vala Faye[/MENTION].

And, even then (and here's me not being considerate with someone's feelings [although, really, I did consider them, for over a minute, I just decided to write this anyway]), the way you've put it is just so... crisp and clear. What type are you?

So, how could this be improved? Perhaps by communicating more directly in a considerate and spacious manner? It might help to write little notes or to find gracious ways of initiating communication. It is an interesting conundrum.

It is.

I find the forum to be helpful in this regard.

It sounds absurd, but I believe I'm able to communicate better on here than anywhere else.

Real life doesn't have responses to posts, reps, vm's, pm's, vent group chat, vent group voice, vent one-on-one chat, vent one-on-one voice, etc.

With all the options at our disposal here, I feel like it's easier for me to get my message across.

Then again, I have mercury in the 12th, so...

Beyond this being just an INTJ issue, it may be something even bigger for me.
 

Circle

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How do you know this stuff?

The only person I've met with this kind of insight is [MENTION=5494]Vala Faye[/MENTION].

And, even then (and here's me not being considerate with someone's feelings [although, really, I did consider them, for over a minute, I just decided to write this anyway]), the way you've put it is just so... crisp and clear. What type are you?

I don't really know stuff. I just know my friends. I've known them long enough to understand how they think.

I just tested as INFJ and have several times. But, I've also tested as ENFP, ENTP, and INTP. As for crispness and clarity, that's just how I attempt to convey what I feel. If I can't convey it clearly, I won't be understood and if I won't be understood what is the point of trying to express one's self? To be fair, INTJs should be straightforward to understand because they seem to value consistency. That makes their behavior follow from first principles.

It is.

I find the forum to be helpful in this regard.

It sounds absurd, but I believe I'm able to communicate better on here than anywhere else.

It does not sound absurd to me. It's often easier to communicate if you have time to reflect. Some people, especially those who reflect more deeply, benefit from more time for reflection.

Real life doesn't have responses to posts, reps, vm's, pm's, vent group chat, vent group voice, vent one-on-one chat, vent one-on-one voice, etc.

With all the options at our disposal here, I feel like it's easier for me to get my message across.

Then again, I have mercury in the 12th, so...

Beyond this being just an INTJ issue, it may be something even bigger for me.

I don't really get that. :huh: :)
 

Zarathustra

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I don't really know stuff. I just know my friends. I've known them long enough to understand how they think.

I just tested as INFJ and have several times. But, I've also tested as ENFP, ENTP, and INTP. As for crispness and clarity, that's just how I attempt to convey what I feel. If I can't convey it clearly, I won't be understood and if I won't be understood what is the point of trying to express one's self?

To be completely honest, INFJ was what I had in mind.

It's the Ni dom connection.

You are more concise than most your brethren, tho.

To be fair, INTJs should be straightforward to understand because they seem to value consistency. That makes their behavior follow from first principles.

You might consider telling this to [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], who thinks our foundation is nothing more than sand.

:rolleyes:

It does not sound absurd to me. It's often easier to communicate if you have time to reflect. Some people, especially those who reflect more deeply, benefit from more time for reflection.

Yeah.

Give me a bit of time, and I'm really quite witty.

In real time, though, I'm more withdrawn, still mulling over/reflecting.

I noticed this over a decade ago, when I used to use AIM a lot.

Just those few seconds, and communication becomes much easier.

I don't really get that. :huh: :)

I was actually searching for a link to explain when my browser crashed.

It has to do with astrology, which, well, I don't believe, per se, but I do know/keep in mind.

http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/mercuryinhouses.html said:
Mercury in the 12th House
You are not very quick to speak or communicate, especially in childhood, as you need to develop trust in your own abilities to express yourself. You make an excellent confidante--you are very discreet and secrets go into the vault. You might make matters too complex by overanalyzing motives or hunches, and then have problems acting on your intuition as a result. You are very attracted to symbols, sentiment, imagery, and paradoxes. You prefer not to focus on facts and learn best when ideas are presented visually, emotionally, or imaginatively. Learning to communicate clearly is a challenge for you, but one that might put an end to feelings of guilt, of being misunderstood, and to attracting unpleasant situations or duplicitous people into your experience.

http://www.astrologyindepth.com/Mercury_in_the_12th_house said:
Mercury in the 12th house
Your mental and communicative abilities will largely be applied in an inner search for spiritual truth and mental enlightenment. Intellectual understanding is related to intuitive mystical guidance and hunches from a mind turned inward - like in meditation. This placement of Mercury is powerful for creative endeavour and occupations that require your special qualities - acting, writing, art, poetry, singing, music, nursing or humanitarian work. On occasion, your mind may be overpowered by deep emotional eruptions; to retain balance you will need to seek peace, quiet and seclusion.

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005659.html said:
Mercury in the 12th
Mercury in the 12th doesn't exactly wander into the 12th house - he falls into it. And, like Alice, he finds himself in a strange land, encounterin things that are awesome, helpful and fascinating.

Primarily, a 12th house Mercury attempts to build a bridge betwen the conscious and unconscious minds - to integrate into conscious awareness what is operating in the hidden depths of the psyche. This involves a two-fold process. First, those with this placement venture into the imaginal realms of the unconscious, although if they don't choose to take that initial step, it doesn't matter - what is down there will sooner or later come up to get them. Secondly, once in that realm, they must look around, take notes and then come back up again. If they get stuck down there, forgetting to return up again or unable to do so, then someone else will have to be called in to rescue them.

What does this all mean? Those with Mercury here --- through introspection, soul-searching, psychotherapy, good literature, or dreamwork -- need to explore the unconscious to find out what makes them tick. Depending on the aspects to Mercury, some of what is stored there will be useful and productive and well worth bringing to the surface. However, other stuff may need to be sifted through and sorted out -- especially learned impressions and memories from the past which, consciously remembered or not, distrot and ovscure how informantion received in the present is being interpreted. In order to see what is in front of them more clearly, they will have to clean up some of the early life (or previous life?) debris cluttering their immediate perception and awareness.

After a while uncollectd rubbish stars to stink. If they don't take some of that "garbage" and convert it to compost, then the dissolving action that the 12th house has on any planet in it begins to take effect: in this case the mind (Mercury) breaks down. I mentioned that if Mercury doesn't go down there, what's down ther comes up and gets them. Mercury in the 12th could suffer occassionally from intrusive thoughts of an obsessive or disturbing nature. If difficulty aspected, paranoia and the fear that others are talking or plotting against them could result. Innocent facts and people will be sistorted to give support to these fantasies.

Planets in the 12th house are not sure of their boundaries. The questions for Mercury there is, 'whose mind is it anyway?'. An openness to thought sand undercurrents in the atmosphere makes it difficult to know hwat thoughts are their own and wich belonot other people. In fact, some people with Mercury in the 12th maybe so afraid of 'losing their mind' that they compensate by being super-rational, only believing in what can be statistically proven or tested. This placement also gives a secretive mind, which hides what it is thinking from others. However, if Mercury is not too badly aspected, there are psychic abilities, a vivid imagination and access to the accumulated wisdm of the past.

The imaginative Pulitzer winning author, Ernets Hemingway, was born with Mercury in the Leo inthe 12th ruling Virgo on the Ascedant and Gemini on the cusp of the 10th, the house of career. The film-maker an actor Orson Welles is another brilliant talent with an expansive imagination: he was born with Mercury in Taurus in the 12th exactly sextile Jupiter in Pisces in the 10th. The often divinely inspired actor, Lord Oliver, also has Mercury in the 12th, rulinga Gmeini Ascendant and Virgo on the cusp of the 5th house or creative self-expression.

I have met some people with Mercury in the 12th who are insecure about their mental abilities. It maybe that they understand much more than they are able to put into words, or suffer from learning or education difficulties. Conversely, those with mercury here are sometimes involved in helping others who have problems with speech, reading, hearin gor mobility. Whatever is in the 12th house is not just here for our own consumption -- we can often use these energies to help or serves other people. There may be sacrifices that have to be made for brothers or sisters, or something unusual about the relationship with them.

The 12th house has been referred to as 'the house of self-sustainment or self undoing.'. With Mercury here, negative thinking could be the root of many problems, while learning to use th emind and imagination more positively may be just be needed ingredient to transform obstacles into blessings.

Gemini on the cusp of the 12th warns that clear thinking could be obscured by unconscious emotional complexes wich should be examined. On the positive side, they can usually talk themselves out of difficulties or like Odysseus manoeuvre cleverly thorugh tricky situations. Virgo on the cusp of the 12th is prone to obsessive-compulsive thoughts Stemming froma fear of looking silly or appearing foolish, they maybe be afraid to relax and let go. Often they judge themselves against too rigid ideals of perfection and harbour feeligs of inadequacy. This sensitivity to what is weak or flawed can be turned around and used to help themselves or othes where it needed most.

I know that astrology might seem ridiculous to our modern sensibilities, but I'd never read the above long description before, and the fact that I just got three more books in the mail yesterday having to do with "introspection, soul-searching, and psychotherapy", and that they're sitting at my bedside along with several other stacks of books pertaining to the same, and that the above description sounds not only just like me, but extremely similar to an enneagram 6, which I am, that, when taken in conjunction with all the other accurate insights I've come across during my studies of astrology, it continues to amaze me how many of these "coincidences" I find each time I venture back.
 

Circle

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To be completely honest, INFJ was what I had in mind.

It's the Ni dom connection.

You are more concise than most your brethren, tho.

I tend to think. Then I distill. I tend to write. Then I edit.


Give me a bit of time, and I'm really quite witty.

In real time, though, I'm more withdrawn, still mulling over/reflecting.

I noticed this over a decade ago, when I used to use AIM a lot.

Just those few seconds, and communication becomes much easier.

To express yourself you have to check in with yourself. It takes time.
 

Mia.

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How does Se inferior manifest in INTJ's? Are you aware of accessing it in the moment, or with later reflection? Do you see yourself using it in a negative, immature way?

(I ask because my INTJ had some, to me, quite humorous sensory quarks. I am curious if INTJ's are drawn to the same types of sensory stimuli or if it varies, which I suspect it does.)

You, my dear, ask the best questions in this thread.

Let's just hope the response to this one doesn't get lost to the ether...

How does inferior Se manifest in INTJs?

Inferior Se manifests in many different ways. Some of which I'm aware of:

  • Compulsive need for sensory stimuli when stressed. When I'm stressed, I feel the need to take a hot shower. Many people might say a similar thing, but I doubt it manifests as consistently, strongly, and compulsively as it does in me. I will take a hot shower, get out, and then want to get right back in. I don't want it to stop. As long as I'm feeling soothing hot water rolling over my head, I'm not trippin about whatever's going on. Often times it actually allows me to look at the matter in a clearer light, clear my head, get back into a more productive zone. (A similar thing might happen with sex or masturbation, depending on what's easy/available at the moment. This isn't as consistent as the shower thing, though.) (Other INTJs, I believe, might also report something similar with substance use, whether alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs. This has never been much of an issue for me. I [have] use[d] all these things in moderation, at some time in my life, but have never had much of a compulsive use or abuse problem. I've seen, though, that INTJs are the third most likely type to get help for a substance abuse problem.)

  • A high sensitivity to unpleasing sensory phenomena., whether a sight, sound, a smell, a taste, a temperature, a texture, a position, having someone touch me, etc. This one can be pretty bad, cuz it's highly uncontrollable, can rear its head in relationship situations, wherein the other person is trying to cuddle, or is touching me in a certain way, or a number of other things, and, I dunno, I can have just a really visceral reaction caused by frustration over the other person not realizing how uncomfortable/displeased they're making me. It's not uniform, either; something that I'll enjoy at one time will be something that will bother me at another. There's something disgustingly immature, imo, about expecting the other person to realize the discomfort they're causing you, but, at the same time, part of me says that the person should be attuned to such a thing. The thing is, then my rational brain kicks back in and recognizes how absurd it is to expect the other person to always "just know". I'd say this is one of the uglier manifestations of it.

  • Information addiction.

  • Unusual/inordinate attention to details. This one is well-covered in Naomi Quenk's

  • Pervasive sexuality. I'm kind of just generally a hornball. It's like part of me will always be a 23-yr old SP. My ENFP ex used to get pretty annoyed when we would walk around a video store and I'd always stop and check out (every single one of) the C-rated boob flicks. With Se in the demonic position, I don't think she appreciated my conundrum. I can't really help myself. If the cover is enticing, I'm gunna pick it up, look at the back to see if there's any more eye candy, and there's really no two ways about it. I don't see anything wrong with it either. These are my urges. Why the fuck should you care? Sexually, this manifests as a willingness to explore, which is probably why INTJs have a reputation for being phreaks in the bed.

  • INTJs' oft-noted obsession with anime. Anything else explain this oddity?
Are you aware of accessing it in the moment, or with later reflection?

Well, I mean, first off, does one have to know what Se/inferior Se is in order to be aware of accessing it?

I've always been aware of the above-mentioned attributes to some degree, and recognized them as being due to something inside me, and I'd say I've steadily become more aware of it over time. Some people who I'm close to, throughout my life, have commented on my... uhm... strong sexuality. I'm not sure if it's because I'm an sx dom, or inferior Se, or both, or what, but I would lay at least some of the blame on the Se. Even if it's our 4th function, it's kinda always there, subconsciously, underlying everything.

I'd say, now, with a strong theoretical backing in typology, I'm pretty aware of it most of the time. That doesn't mean I necessarily do or can do anything about it. Frankly, I like those C-rated boob flick covers (I mean, it's not like I've ever actually rented one or anything [I'm not a frickin SP]); I like taking showers when I'm stressed; rubbing one out or fucking my girlfriend can be a great stress reliever; and, well, I like (good) anime). I do want to be able to handle displeasing sensory phenomena better. I try to, and I succeed to some extent, but I don't find my current type/level of response acceptable.

Do you see yourself using it in a negative, immature way?

I think I've already covered this.

***

I'm kinda done with my first crack at this.

Ima keep adding to the above over the next few days.

Feel free to ask follow-up questions; I'm pretty sure I've got more to say about it.

Parenthetically, for a less academic and more philosophical/entertaining exploration of inferior Se in INTJs, one of my favorite movies – Mary Reilly – gives an interesting take/conceptualization of it. It is loosely based on Robert Louis Stevenson’s Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and the main character is an INFP sx chambermaid who is opposite an INTJ sx Dr. Jekyll. The imagery, language, and associations are interesting, especially in regard to the idea of inferior Se in an sx INTJ in particular with their penchant for intensity.

 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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How does Se inferior manifest in INTJ's? Are you aware of accessing it in the moment, or with later reflection? Do you see yourself using it in a negative, immature way?
Zarathustra's summary is a good start. Interestingly, I experience his item 2 very strongly, and have as long as I can remember. I would add that I use Fi+Se quite often in my hobbies, especially music. There is something about using my hands to produce the sounds, that then have the emotional impact, either on myself or sometimes on others, if I play for them. It allows me to express myself in a much different way from my usual occupations. Interestingly, however, I get the same sensations when I am doing hands-on lab work: turning the knobs and watching the meters as I optimize some setup. It's like its own music.

When are you not confident? Be honest here. It's said that INTJ is among one of the most confident types but there must be something that makes you rather unsure of yourself.
I have no problem with presentations to groups large and small, as long as I am comfortable with the content. It is small to medium sized groups of people I don't know well in social situations that makes me unsure. I feel very tense, and resort to being fairly formal, relying on unsatisfying scripts to get by. If I am lucky enough to run across a person I can have a decent conversation with, I will relax a bit, at least until the next onslaught of people I don't know, chattering on about things I don't care about.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Time to catch up on this thread.
So I have a question - in terms of Ni and Si, I thought that there was a significant aspect of time-tracking to both processes. Introverted Perception is getting ideas from inside one's mind, and I assumed the "bank" of data was essentially internal memories and concepts that are time-attentive (since Ni so often notes dynamic processes within time and Si notes scenario-to-scenario static change over time). Is this incorrect, and/or what is it, exactly, that Ni is drawing from to create its perception?

I think I sort of understand what you mean, with all those things sort of suddenly combining for you to realize that they all when laced together point to "a storm is coming". I don't really understand how it's different from Si, though. All these things are... in motion? Like they're processes? Si could know - they're cows, - cows moo, - cows tend to look upwards when it's going to rain (I'm making this up), and Ne could quickly go from cows looking up -> rain. Versus Se would see cows looking up, the wind whistling, and the animals dispersing and crowding, and Ni would go from this combination of elements -> rain? Is this how Si is more linear and Ni is more abstract? Ni combines all the things at once? But then it's not really like Si is linear so much as it is concrete -- distinct. Same with Se. It sees individual elements moreso than wholes. Yes?

I have been thinking about these questions. As an Ni-dom, I have largely taken this function for granted. This has been a good opportunity to attempt to analyze exactly what I do with it. My own understanding is thus still evolving, but I will provide what explanations I can.

Ni obviously does not operate in a vacuum. As I mentioned, it is influenced by all my experiences, everything I have learned, observed, or understood. This includes not only previous ideas, but other ideas suggested by those ideas, later versions of those ideas, evolving interpretations, etc. Yes, change is large part of what Ni perceives, but the focus is on how it all comes together in the present: how the convolution of all relevant changes leads to the existing situation, and more importantly, to the future. It is a bit like taking a derivative, where we measure not the value of some property at a specific point in time, but rather how that property is changing at that moment. Another way to look at it is to contrast Ne's view of current external ideas with Ni's view of current internal ideas.

This differs from Si primarily in that, unlike my imperfect analogy, it involves not factual or sensory observations, but meanings, interpretations, patterns: the classic N vs. S division. It is definitely not linear, but then I don't assume Si is. A real farmer will pull together disparate but concrete impressions to conclude that rain is coming. To extend the analogy, then, a "real Ni-dom" would mix that conclusion about the weather with a bunch of other stuff to "see" in an instant how that will play out for the success of the farm, and perhaps how to mitigate negative effects on the crops/livestock. The presumably Si-based farmer might reach the same conclusion, but through deliberate and logical association of facts. I suppose this does sound a bit more linear, but I don't think that is essential.

Maybe I've been imagining things, but to me, Ni curtness feels different from Si curtness. When the NJs I know are really mad and are curt, their curtness practically begs for elaboration; it always seems intentionally vague and like it's leading somewhere. Whereas Si curtness doesn't want it to lead anywhere, so it is very clear, and the tone is less leading and more "here are the exact facts of the matter without any elaboration, because I'm too tired to play games with you and I want you to understand me".
Ni curtness often does have the same multi-dimensional meaning that Skylights was observing, in that people are not always sure how to take it. It can be very sarcastic, which some people will miss entirely.

I have DEFINITELY seen it in NTJs [manipulating information through wording and which details are included/omitted]. :yes: ENTJs do it very skillfully, I think. Though many of the INTJs I know will come across as suspiciously vague or curt when they leave out information.
The trick is to keep the focus not on what you are leaving out, but what you are keeping in. I do this all the time.

INTJs are among the most respectful and dignified types I know. They err on the side of giving enough space and consideration. Though this can cause them problems they at least don't inflict themselves on others, in most cases, until the friendship is proven.
This is certainly how I try to behave, and for the most part, I think I succeed. Even as a teenager working my first job in a pharmacy, I got compliments about how courteous and helpful I was to customers. People often thought I was older than I was. For me, there is some aspect of treating others how I want to be treated. I want to be given my space, treated with respect, and not be subject to others' assumptions. There is also an element of establishing distance in all this, the formality and privacy often associated with our type. It all goes together. Of course, if you want warmth, openness, and familiarity, you may find this unsatisfying.
 
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