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[INTJ] Ask an INTJ

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37462&p=1407027&viewfull=1#post1407027

To arrive at a conclusion is more important and much easier than to remember the steps one has taken to get there.
The difference between stating your opinion and explainig it is, for me, like the difference between evaluating a picture and giving an accurate picture description: while the conclusion is the same, the latter is much more laborious. Most people, however, need the description to see that the conclusion is correct.
You're right about it being more work, and you're right that the conclusion is the most important. (Te bonding! :D) But what about the bolded? Why choose to not give all the information if you're fully aware that most people need the description? From a Te dom perspective, that surprises me, because if you want someone to understand you, then you do whatever it takes to make them understand you. Is it that being fully understood isn't a priority?

I would say that this is probably Ni vs. Ne, except that I know quite a few xNFJs who go out of their way to be completely and fully understood - much worse than me :laugh: So I guess I'm still confused.
@EJCC

Not all INTJ's, or introverts for that matter, are articulate. Not to mention that INTJ's are Ni dominant which makes it more difficult for them to express their thoughts. Even if they are able to express themselves, it does not necessarily mean that they'll be understood, which is why personally, I do not bother explaining to most of my acquaintances.
Interesting. I wonder if this is just lack of faith in your ability to articulate what you're saying? When you try to articulate personal reasoning, does it always feel like you aren't quite doing your thought processes the justice they deserve? I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes; because with me, it often doesn't matter if the INTJ is articulate or not. All I really want is a valid reason. For example, with movies: even if the INTJ said "I hate this movie because the main character has ugly hair" - regardless of whether or not I agree, it's a reason, and it doesn't raise my hackles like "I hate it because it's stupid".
EDIT: This also may be partly the reason why INTJ's seem close-minded. I can't speak for the behalf of all INTJ's, but I really am open-minded, but people seem to think otherwise because even if I understand their opinion, they can't understand mine.
I think you're right; to me, anyways, INTJs can often come across as dismissive to any opinion that they disagree with, and then are so curt about it that I get this vibe from them as if they're saying "I hate it, end of story. Don't talk to me anymore about it because there's no point." How would you recommend that friends of INTJs deal with this miscommunication?
 

Nicodemus

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Why choose to not give all the information if you're fully aware that most people need the description? [...] Is it that being fully understood isn't a priority?
The description is boring, unnerving, often ineffective, thus it is only given in detail when one really wants the other(s) to fully understand where the conclusion has come from. That is usually not that case; so hints have to suffice.

From a Te dom perspective, that surprises me, because if you want someone to understand you, then you do whatever it takes to make them understand you.
If your friends do not deign to explain themselves, then they might just not deem the issue important enough. Or they think they have given enough information to be understood by those who deserve to understand (people who use their brains, that is).

I would say that this is probably Ni vs. Ne, except that I know quite a few xNFJs who go out of their way to be completely and fully understood - much worse than me :laugh: So I guess I'm still confused.
Perhaps NFJs care more about being understood.
 

ceecee

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I think you're right; to me, anyways, INTJs can often come across as dismissive to any opinion that they disagree with, and then are so curt about it that I get this vibe from them as if they're saying "I hate it, end of story. Don't talk to me anymore about it because there's no point." How would you recommend that friends of INTJs deal with this miscommunication?

Well, does it have to be spoken? I mean if it's important to you to know what they feel that way, would an email or text work? Of course I try to articulate why I feel a certain way and what brought me to that conclusion but sometimes, depending on the situation, it's nearly impossible. That's where the alternative communication comes in and it works. At least for me. If they won't and they're being a doucher about it, you may have to accept it. Unless you are ok with interrogation and torture but I wouldn't recommend it.
 

poppy

triple nerd score
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Well, does it have to be spoken? I mean if it's important to you to know what they feel that way, would an email or text work? Of course I try to articulate why I feel a certain way and what brought me to that conclusion but sometimes, depending on the situation, it's nearly impossible. That's where the alternative communication comes in and it works. At least for me. If they won't and they're being a doucher about it, you may have to accept it. Unless you are ok with interrogation and torture but I wouldn't recommend it.

+1

I store a lot of info and have a hard time recalling it at the right times, so sometimes I'll make blanket statements that I have a hard time providing reasons for when I'm put on the spot. If I can come back to it later and actually explain myself, I can craft a satisfactory response.

(Which is why I love communicating on forums)
 

InvisibleJim

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I think you're right; to me, anyways, INTJs can often come across as dismissive to any opinion that they disagree with, and then are so curt about it that I get this vibe from them as if they're saying "I hate it, end of story. Don't talk to me anymore about it because there's no point." How would you recommend that friends of INTJs deal with this miscommunication?

INTJs can act oddly on the spot. If you find we are exhibiting non-linear behaviour then give us some space (a day or two) rather than pushing the issue.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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Well, does it have to be spoken? I mean if it's important to you to know what they feel that way, would an email or text work? Of course I try to articulate why I feel a certain way and what brought me to that conclusion but sometimes, depending on the situation, it's nearly impossible. That's where the alternative communication comes in and it works. At least for me. If they won't and they're being a doucher about it, you may have to accept it. Unless you are ok with interrogation and torture but I wouldn't recommend it.
That would be excellent - i.e. a written/typed/nonverbal response - because it definitely doesn't have to be spoken. The reply itself is what matters in the end. And that's great advice, to leave it alone if the only other option is interrogation... Generally the main time that I get frustrated with my INTJ friends doing what I described, is when I view it as not a particularly difficult thing to explain. For example, why you hated a movie. But I guess this is Si vs. Ni, with Ni having more of a "gut" response to the movie which requires introspection to interpret, and Si having a giant list of criteria which the movie didn't meet. Does that sound right?
+1

I store a lot of info and have a hard time recalling it at the right times, so sometimes I'll make blanket statements that I have a hard time providing reasons for when I'm put on the spot. If I can come back to it later and actually explain myself, I can craft a satisfactory response.

(Which is why I love communicating on forums)
Thank you for this :) I feel a lot better about it now. It makes me happy to know that it isn't that INTJs think that people aren't worth the effort; it's that you don't have instant recall on the spot - like you said. So, by saying "I hate it because it was stupid", an INTJ might be giving all the information that they are currently able to give; everything else is buried in the Ni. Right?

(This is all so foreign to me. Fascinating stuff! :D)
 

ceecee

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That would be excellent - i.e. a written/typed/nonverbal response - because it definitely doesn't have to be spoken. The reply itself is what matters in the end. And that's great advice, to leave it alone if the only other option is interrogation... Generally the main time that I get frustrated with my INTJ friends doing what I described, is when I view it as not a particularly difficult thing to explain. For example, why you hated a movie. But I guess this is Si vs. Ni, with Ni having more of a "gut" response to the movie which requires introspection to interpret, and Si having a giant list of criteria which the movie didn't meet. Does that sound right?

Thank you for this :) I feel a lot better about it now. It makes me happy to know that it isn't that INTJs think that people aren't worth the effort; it's that you don't have instant recall on the spot - like you said. So, by saying "I hate it because it was stupid", an INTJ might be giving all the information that they are currently able to give; everything else is buried in the Ni. Right?

(This is all so foreign to me. Fascinating stuff! :D)

Yes and Ni is a bitch. I do try to verbalize a reason for any decision I come to and there have been days where I say - hold that thought, go get my laptop and IM them. In the same room. It gives me the ability to a) make myself understood b) explain my reasoning in a manner free of emotion (on either side) and c) generally it has an excellent outcome. If we didn't care about telling you what we think or didn't think you were worth the effort, we wouldn't even bother with saying I hated the movie. We certainly feel people who are close to us are worth the effort but sometimes when I say things in my head I want to say to them it's like...this is going to make no sense to them or this is going to sound like I don't care. Or any of the 10 million other ways we can over analyze something.

Ohhh one thing I did start saying was...I have no opinion at this time. I'm acknowledging the situation but I'm holding off on voicing anything until I can frame it in a better way.
 

Thisica

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What role does inferior Se play in your temperament. And also, how do you reconcile your allegiance to an NT type in general with your Intuition being so preponderous over Thinking.

In short, how do you, as an NT treat the idea of yourself being so much more intuitive than analytical? Do you see this as potentially problematic, as I could imagine that you--as an NT probably want to have an analytical and dispassionate approach to life.

I try to make sure that my intuition function doesn't operate on its own. Se keeps me connected to the actual world, by simple awareness of my current biological state and augments Te in reality-assurance. I am probably more analytical than intuitive by my science training :) Ni's there to keep things in perspective, Te's there to focus on that perspective and testing ideas against experience. To me, both work in tandem; they're practically what makes me tempted to think that's a good combination in the traits of a researcher :)

Anyways, my intuition faculty can be overwhelming at times to my other functions, in particular Te and Fi. They get overloaded with data connections from Ni, which I try to handle by writing as much as I can of these connections, whether or not they make sense. It's only afterwards that the analysis can be done in earnest. I think it's a matter of not rushing to conclusions...and taking my time in sorting out these thoughts. However, I'm still learning to do this :workout:
 

Thisica

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I am not an INTJ, though technically qualified to answer the question.

I'd say yes to that. INTP-INTP would not work because of the lack of F influence in the relationship. Though the rest of the NTs should do well with their own type, especially the INTJ-INTJ as they are the most sensitive of the thinkers due to the influence of their tertiary Fi, as well as that it is being sharpened by Introverted Intuition.

Are you suggesting that Ni infects the workings of the other cognitive functions of the INTJ? And if so, to what extent?
 

Thisica

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Dear INTJs,

How do you get your crazy ideas?

Love,
An ISTJ who has to walk around the park, or stare off into space, to get "inspired"

I read. A lot. Of stuff. However random it may be.
Then my brain goes into innate organisation mode, whilst I focus on other things, until an "ah hah!" moment arrives. This can happen anytime, so I keep a black book around.
 

Thisica

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In jungian terms what INTJs have access to more easily are the archetypes that populate the collective unconscious.

I'm not so sure about what that means...:(

A question: are there any other INTJs that also feel like they are extremelty sensitive to things such as irony, paradox and contradiction?

Yes. I also notice the inconsistencies of ideas people throw at me, and hidden issues that never seem to be talked, such as the rationality of emotions: people think of them as irrational, but this sounds weird to me, as they occur in somewhat predictable ways :)
 

Thisica

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I understand that you guys are like, really deeply involved with your ideas about things, your constructs if you will, but why when confronted with contradictory, or counter information do you guys stay so, so, well, bull-headedly rigid?!?!?

At times like these you guys seem more uber-fanatical than that of being uber-rational.

I take the route of John A. Wheeler's [the guy who coined the term "black hole"!] strategy regarding new information: radical conservatism...Here, we try to stretch our theories to the limit, hence the apparent stubbornness.
 

yenom

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My INTJ father thinks I am an incompetent douche because I can't outdo him ( as in basically more intelligent than him). What should I do?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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My INTJ father thinks I am an incompetent douche because I can't outdo him ( as in basically more intelligent than him). What should I do?
Ignore his attitude, and just keep doing your best at the things that are important to you. Pay attention to any substantive criticism he may have in case you can learn something useful, but ignore the value judgements. INTJs value independence and confidence. If he sees you are managing your life in your own way, and are not overly dependent upon his approbation, he should come round eventually and at least be able to maintain a more mature, adult relationship.
 

Rasofy

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I've met a couple of INTPs that wish they were INTJs.
Interestingly, I've never seen a INTJ wishing he was another mbti type.
Isn't there a mbti personality type that you envy?
 

gromit

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Dear INTJs,

What would you like from your friends if you're feeling bummed out?
 

INTPness

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All things equal, what would you say that INTP's do better than you?

This isn't meant to spark one of those heated NT debates, but it's a serious question. There are certainly things that I think INTJ's do better than myself.
 

Coriolis

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I've met a couple of INTPs that wish they were INTJs.
Interestingly, I've never seen a INTJ wishing he was another mbti type.
Isn't there a mbti personality type that you envy?
I envy attributes of many other types, but not enough to wish to be that type overall. I suppose I envy the most how calm, grounded, and peaceful INFPs can be, at least the ones I have known. They are a bit like the guru on the mountaintop.

What would you like from your friends if you're feeling bummed out?
To offer practical help at solving the problem; to spend low-key time together in activities that require little talking; and often, just to leave me alone.

All things equal, what would you say that INTP's do better than you?
They are much better at having fun, being spontaneous, and rolling with the punches. My specific INTP is much better at smalltalk, chatting up the neighbors for useful info, and generally remaining on good terms. I'm not sure whether this is type-related, though, or just him.
 
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