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Thread: Ask an INTJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sorry, I thought it was clear from my response last night that I was joking (mocking what would be [and can be] an unhealthy way for an (I)N(T)J to go about living their life/engaging in relationships [or any human being for that matter {we just might be more disposed to it, due to Ni}]), but, based on some of the responses in that thread, apparently it was not.
    I couldn't decide... figured it was one of those jokes that's true and a joke at the same time. Unfortunately, I have known Ni users who do seem to believe this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Wow... interesting that you would notice this... I generally feel this goes completely unnoticed... it is true and regrettable that it does cause us problems, and, frankly, it can be really annoying at times, and it's easy to write it off to other things (insecurity being a primary one [and I can't say there's no truth to it]), but, I think the most accurate depiction is that we put a higher premium on giving people their space and consideration than others, and so, to get us over that hump, there's got to be a pretty damn clear sign that the person wants us over that hump. Honestly, this is the source of some of the greatest perturbation in my life; I appreciate that you not only recognize it, but appreciate it. Not sure if I've ever seen that before.
    It might go unnoticed because it takes equal consideration to recognize the space granted. We have trouble noticing the non-obvious and INTJs are not known as chest-beaters, trumpeting every selfless act. If anything, they are masters of self-discipline and believe that Virtue is its own reward. INTJs can be highly value-centered and extremely disciplined and scrupulous with regard to their behavior involving other people.

    So, how could this be improved? Perhaps by communicating more directly in a considerate and spacious manner? It might help to write little notes or to find gracious ways of initiating communication. It is an interesting conundrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I couldn't decide... figured it was one of those jokes that's true and a joke at the same time. Unfortunately, I have known Ni users who do seem to believe this.
    Oh, well, you were right; it was both.

    But it was both in the sense that I was mocking us for doing it/if we do it.

    I have definitely done it in the past, and it's one of the things we need to work on in relationships.

    See, it's problematic when we lose sight of who the person really is, and just expect them to conform to this role that we envision for them.

    But, at the same time, our vision is all-encompassing and all-important, so, frankly, where I stand now: if you don't fit, then I must quit.

    This has to do with my specific life path, the relationships I've had, and the decisions I've made around them.

    I do feel, though, that it's the right path for any person/NJ.

    You need to find someone who does fit into your vision.

    It shouldn't be you trying to fit a square into a circle.

    And you most definitely should not lose sight of who they really are.

    You just need to find someone whose actual self does fit into the role you envision.

    And, as you pointed to, you should certainly be looking to let them flourish into whomever they want/are supposed to be.

    It's all about finding someone with whom you're truly compatible; your vision of them is compatible with their vision of themselves.

    Anything else, in my experience, leads to one or both people (either successfully or unsuccessfully) compromising their vision.

    Sometimes that compromise might be a good thing, but, other times, it might absolutely be the wrong thing.

    If you compromise to the point that it's no longer your vision, and your vision matters to you...

    Well, I'd say that's when you've gone too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    It might go unnoticed because it takes equal consideration to recognize the space granted. We have trouble noticing the non-obvious and INTJs are not known as chest-beaters, trumpeting every selfless act. If anything, they are masters of self-discipline and believe that Virtue is its own reward. INTJs can be highly value-centered and extremely disciplined and scrupulous with regard to their behavior involving other people.
    How do you know this stuff?

    The only person I've met with this kind of insight is @Vala Faye.

    And, even then (and here's me not being considerate with someone's feelings [although, really, I did consider them, for over a minute, I just decided to write this anyway]), the way you've put it is just so... crisp and clear. What type are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    So, how could this be improved? Perhaps by communicating more directly in a considerate and spacious manner? It might help to write little notes or to find gracious ways of initiating communication. It is an interesting conundrum.
    It is.

    I find the forum to be helpful in this regard.

    It sounds absurd, but I believe I'm able to communicate better on here than anywhere else.

    Real life doesn't have responses to posts, reps, vm's, pm's, vent group chat, vent group voice, vent one-on-one chat, vent one-on-one voice, etc.

    With all the options at our disposal here, I feel like it's easier for me to get my message across.

    Then again, I have mercury in the 12th, so...

    Beyond this being just an INTJ issue, it may be something even bigger for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    How do you know this stuff?

    The only person I've met with this kind of insight is @Vala Faye.

    And, even then (and here's me not being considerate with someone's feelings [although, really, I did consider them, for over a minute, I just decided to write this anyway]), the way you've put it is just so... crisp and clear. What type are you?
    I don't really know stuff. I just know my friends. I've known them long enough to understand how they think.

    I just tested as INFJ and have several times. But, I've also tested as ENFP, ENTP, and INTP. As for crispness and clarity, that's just how I attempt to convey what I feel. If I can't convey it clearly, I won't be understood and if I won't be understood what is the point of trying to express one's self? To be fair, INTJs should be straightforward to understand because they seem to value consistency. That makes their behavior follow from first principles.

    It is.

    I find the forum to be helpful in this regard.

    It sounds absurd, but I believe I'm able to communicate better on here than anywhere else.
    It does not sound absurd to me. It's often easier to communicate if you have time to reflect. Some people, especially those who reflect more deeply, benefit from more time for reflection.

    Real life doesn't have responses to posts, reps, vm's, pm's, vent group chat, vent group voice, vent one-on-one chat, vent one-on-one voice, etc.

    With all the options at our disposal here, I feel like it's easier for me to get my message across.

    Then again, I have mercury in the 12th, so...

    Beyond this being just an INTJ issue, it may be something even bigger for me.
    I don't really get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    I don't really know stuff. I just know my friends. I've known them long enough to understand how they think.

    I just tested as INFJ and have several times. But, I've also tested as ENFP, ENTP, and INTP. As for crispness and clarity, that's just how I attempt to convey what I feel. If I can't convey it clearly, I won't be understood and if I won't be understood what is the point of trying to express one's self?
    To be completely honest, INFJ was what I had in mind.

    It's the Ni dom connection.

    You are more concise than most your brethren, tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    To be fair, INTJs should be straightforward to understand because they seem to value consistency. That makes their behavior follow from first principles.
    You might consider telling this to @PeaceBaby, who thinks our foundation is nothing more than sand.



    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    It does not sound absurd to me. It's often easier to communicate if you have time to reflect. Some people, especially those who reflect more deeply, benefit from more time for reflection.
    Yeah.

    Give me a bit of time, and I'm really quite witty.

    In real time, though, I'm more withdrawn, still mulling over/reflecting.

    I noticed this over a decade ago, when I used to use AIM a lot.

    Just those few seconds, and communication becomes much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    I don't really get that.
    I was actually searching for a link to explain when my browser crashed.

    It has to do with astrology, which, well, I don't believe, per se, but I do know/keep in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/mercuryinhouses.html
    Mercury in the 12th House
    You are not very quick to speak or communicate, especially in childhood, as you need to develop trust in your own abilities to express yourself. You make an excellent confidante--you are very discreet and secrets go into the vault. You might make matters too complex by overanalyzing motives or hunches, and then have problems acting on your intuition as a result. You are very attracted to symbols, sentiment, imagery, and paradoxes. You prefer not to focus on facts and learn best when ideas are presented visually, emotionally, or imaginatively. Learning to communicate clearly is a challenge for you, but one that might put an end to feelings of guilt, of being misunderstood, and to attracting unpleasant situations or duplicitous people into your experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.astrologyindepth.com/Mercury_in_the_12th_house
    Mercury in the 12th house
    Your mental and communicative abilities will largely be applied in an inner search for spiritual truth and mental enlightenment. Intellectual understanding is related to intuitive mystical guidance and hunches from a mind turned inward - like in meditation. This placement of Mercury is powerful for creative endeavour and occupations that require your special qualities - acting, writing, art, poetry, singing, music, nursing or humanitarian work. On occasion, your mind may be overpowered by deep emotional eruptions; to retain balance you will need to seek peace, quiet and seclusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005659.html
    Mercury in the 12th
    Mercury in the 12th doesn't exactly wander into the 12th house - he falls into it. And, like Alice, he finds himself in a strange land, encounterin things that are awesome, helpful and fascinating.

    Primarily, a 12th house Mercury attempts to build a bridge betwen the conscious and unconscious minds - to integrate into conscious awareness what is operating in the hidden depths of the psyche. This involves a two-fold process. First, those with this placement venture into the imaginal realms of the unconscious, although if they don't choose to take that initial step, it doesn't matter - what is down there will sooner or later come up to get them. Secondly, once in that realm, they must look around, take notes and then come back up again. If they get stuck down there, forgetting to return up again or unable to do so, then someone else will have to be called in to rescue them.

    What does this all mean? Those with Mercury here --- through introspection, soul-searching, psychotherapy, good literature, or dreamwork -- need to explore the unconscious to find out what makes them tick. Depending on the aspects to Mercury, some of what is stored there will be useful and productive and well worth bringing to the surface. However, other stuff may need to be sifted through and sorted out -- especially learned impressions and memories from the past which, consciously remembered or not, distrot and ovscure how informantion received in the present is being interpreted. In order to see what is in front of them more clearly, they will have to clean up some of the early life (or previous life?) debris cluttering their immediate perception and awareness.

    After a while uncollectd rubbish stars to stink. If they don't take some of that "garbage" and convert it to compost, then the dissolving action that the 12th house has on any planet in it begins to take effect: in this case the mind (Mercury) breaks down. I mentioned that if Mercury doesn't go down there, what's down ther comes up and gets them. Mercury in the 12th could suffer occassionally from intrusive thoughts of an obsessive or disturbing nature. If difficulty aspected, paranoia and the fear that others are talking or plotting against them could result. Innocent facts and people will be sistorted to give support to these fantasies.

    Planets in the 12th house are not sure of their boundaries. The questions for Mercury there is, 'whose mind is it anyway?'. An openness to thought sand undercurrents in the atmosphere makes it difficult to know hwat thoughts are their own and wich belonot other people. In fact, some people with Mercury in the 12th maybe so afraid of 'losing their mind' that they compensate by being super-rational, only believing in what can be statistically proven or tested. This placement also gives a secretive mind, which hides what it is thinking from others. However, if Mercury is not too badly aspected, there are psychic abilities, a vivid imagination and access to the accumulated wisdm of the past.

    The imaginative Pulitzer winning author, Ernets Hemingway, was born with Mercury in the Leo inthe 12th ruling Virgo on the Ascedant and Gemini on the cusp of the 10th, the house of career. The film-maker an actor Orson Welles is another brilliant talent with an expansive imagination: he was born with Mercury in Taurus in the 12th exactly sextile Jupiter in Pisces in the 10th. The often divinely inspired actor, Lord Oliver, also has Mercury in the 12th, rulinga Gmeini Ascendant and Virgo on the cusp of the 5th house or creative self-expression.

    I have met some people with Mercury in the 12th who are insecure about their mental abilities. It maybe that they understand much more than they are able to put into words, or suffer from learning or education difficulties. Conversely, those with mercury here are sometimes involved in helping others who have problems with speech, reading, hearin gor mobility. Whatever is in the 12th house is not just here for our own consumption -- we can often use these energies to help or serves other people. There may be sacrifices that have to be made for brothers or sisters, or something unusual about the relationship with them.

    The 12th house has been referred to as 'the house of self-sustainment or self undoing.'. With Mercury here, negative thinking could be the root of many problems, while learning to use th emind and imagination more positively may be just be needed ingredient to transform obstacles into blessings.

    Gemini on the cusp of the 12th warns that clear thinking could be obscured by unconscious emotional complexes wich should be examined. On the positive side, they can usually talk themselves out of difficulties or like Odysseus manoeuvre cleverly thorugh tricky situations. Virgo on the cusp of the 12th is prone to obsessive-compulsive thoughts Stemming froma fear of looking silly or appearing foolish, they maybe be afraid to relax and let go. Often they judge themselves against too rigid ideals of perfection and harbour feeligs of inadequacy. This sensitivity to what is weak or flawed can be turned around and used to help themselves or othes where it needed most.
    I know that astrology might seem ridiculous to our modern sensibilities, but I'd never read the above long description before, and the fact that I just got three more books in the mail yesterday having to do with "introspection, soul-searching, and psychotherapy", and that they're sitting at my bedside along with several other stacks of books pertaining to the same, and that the above description sounds not only just like me, but extremely similar to an enneagram 6, which I am, that, when taken in conjunction with all the other accurate insights I've come across during my studies of astrology, it continues to amaze me how many of these "coincidences" I find each time I venture back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    To be completely honest, INFJ was what I had in mind.

    It's the Ni dom connection.

    You are more concise than most your brethren, tho.
    I tend to think. Then I distill. I tend to write. Then I edit.


    Give me a bit of time, and I'm really quite witty.

    In real time, though, I'm more withdrawn, still mulling over/reflecting.

    I noticed this over a decade ago, when I used to use AIM a lot.

    Just those few seconds, and communication becomes much easier.
    To express yourself you have to check in with yourself. It takes time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    How does Se inferior manifest in INTJ's? Are you aware of accessing it in the moment, or with later reflection? Do you see yourself using it in a negative, immature way?

    (I ask because my INTJ had some, to me, quite humorous sensory quarks. I am curious if INTJ's are drawn to the same types of sensory stimuli or if it varies, which I suspect it does.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You, my dear, ask the best questions in this thread.

    Let's just hope the response to this one doesn't get lost to the ether...

    How does inferior Se manifest in INTJs?

    Inferior Se manifests in many different ways. Some of which I'm aware of:

    • Compulsive need for sensory stimuli when stressed. When I'm stressed, I feel the need to take a hot shower. Many people might say a similar thing, but I doubt it manifests as consistently, strongly, and compulsively as it does in me. I will take a hot shower, get out, and then want to get right back in. I don't want it to stop. As long as I'm feeling soothing hot water rolling over my head, I'm not trippin about whatever's going on. Often times it actually allows me to look at the matter in a clearer light, clear my head, get back into a more productive zone. (A similar thing might happen with sex or masturbation, depending on what's easy/available at the moment. This isn't as consistent as the shower thing, though.) (Other INTJs, I believe, might also report something similar with substance use, whether alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs. This has never been much of an issue for me. I [have] use[d] all these things in moderation, at some time in my life, but have never had much of a compulsive use or abuse problem. I've seen, though, that INTJs are the third most likely type to get help for a substance abuse problem.)

    • A high sensitivity to unpleasing sensory phenomena., whether a sight, sound, a smell, a taste, a temperature, a texture, a position, having someone touch me, etc. This one can be pretty bad, cuz it's highly uncontrollable, can rear its head in relationship situations, wherein the other person is trying to cuddle, or is touching me in a certain way, or a number of other things, and, I dunno, I can have just a really visceral reaction caused by frustration over the other person not realizing how uncomfortable/displeased they're making me. It's not uniform, either; something that I'll enjoy at one time will be something that will bother me at another. There's something disgustingly immature, imo, about expecting the other person to realize the discomfort they're causing you, but, at the same time, part of me says that the person should be attuned to such a thing. The thing is, then my rational brain kicks back in and recognizes how absurd it is to expect the other person to always "just know". I'd say this is one of the uglier manifestations of it.

    • Information addiction.

    • Unusual/inordinate attention to details. This one is well-covered in Naomi Quenk's

    • Pervasive sexuality. I'm kind of just generally a hornball. It's like part of me will always be a 23-yr old SP. My ENFP ex used to get pretty annoyed when we would walk around a video store and I'd always stop and check out (every single one of) the C-rated boob flicks. With Se in the demonic position, I don't think she appreciated my conundrum. I can't really help myself. If the cover is enticing, I'm gunna pick it up, look at the back to see if there's any more eye candy, and there's really no two ways about it. I don't see anything wrong with it either. These are my urges. Why the fuck should you care? Sexually, this manifests as a willingness to explore, which is probably why INTJs have a reputation for being phreaks in the bed.

    • INTJs' oft-noted obsession with anime. Anything else explain this oddity?

    Are you aware of accessing it in the moment, or with later reflection?

    Well, I mean, first off, does one have to know what Se/inferior Se is in order to be aware of accessing it?

    I've always been aware of the above-mentioned attributes to some degree, and recognized them as being due to something inside me, and I'd say I've steadily become more aware of it over time. Some people who I'm close to, throughout my life, have commented on my... uhm... strong sexuality. I'm not sure if it's because I'm an sx dom, or inferior Se, or both, or what, but I would lay at least some of the blame on the Se. Even if it's our 4th function, it's kinda always there, subconsciously, underlying everything.

    I'd say, now, with a strong theoretical backing in typology, I'm pretty aware of it most of the time. That doesn't mean I necessarily do or can do anything about it. Frankly, I like those C-rated boob flick covers (I mean, it's not like I've ever actually rented one or anything [I'm not a frickin SP]); I like taking showers when I'm stressed; rubbing one out or fucking my girlfriend can be a great stress reliever; and, well, I like (good) anime). I do want to be able to handle displeasing sensory phenomena better. I try to, and I succeed to some extent, but I don't find my current type/level of response acceptable.

    Do you see yourself using it in a negative, immature way?

    I think I've already covered this.

    ***

    I'm kinda done with my first crack at this.

    Ima keep adding to the above over the next few days.

    Feel free to ask follow-up questions; I'm pretty sure I've got more to say about it.
    Parenthetically, for a less academic and more philosophical/entertaining exploration of inferior Se in INTJs, one of my favorite movies – Mary Reilly – gives an interesting take/conceptualization of it. It is loosely based on Robert Louis Stevenson’s Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and the main character is an INFP sx chambermaid who is opposite an INTJ sx Dr. Jekyll. The imagery, language, and associations are interesting, especially in regard to the idea of inferior Se in an sx INTJ in particular with their penchant for intensity.


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    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    How does Se inferior manifest in INTJ's? Are you aware of accessing it in the moment, or with later reflection? Do you see yourself using it in a negative, immature way?
    Zarathustra's summary is a good start. Interestingly, I experience his item 2 very strongly, and have as long as I can remember. I would add that I use Fi+Se quite often in my hobbies, especially music. There is something about using my hands to produce the sounds, that then have the emotional impact, either on myself or sometimes on others, if I play for them. It allows me to express myself in a much different way from my usual occupations. Interestingly, however, I get the same sensations when I am doing hands-on lab work: turning the knobs and watching the meters as I optimize some setup. It's like its own music.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    When are you not confident? Be honest here. It's said that INTJ is among one of the most confident types but there must be something that makes you rather unsure of yourself.
    I have no problem with presentations to groups large and small, as long as I am comfortable with the content. It is small to medium sized groups of people I don't know well in social situations that makes me unsure. I feel very tense, and resort to being fairly formal, relying on unsatisfying scripts to get by. If I am lucky enough to run across a person I can have a decent conversation with, I will relax a bit, at least until the next onslaught of people I don't know, chattering on about things I don't care about.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Time to catch up on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    So I have a question - in terms of Ni and Si, I thought that there was a significant aspect of time-tracking to both processes. Introverted Perception is getting ideas from inside one's mind, and I assumed the "bank" of data was essentially internal memories and concepts that are time-attentive (since Ni so often notes dynamic processes within time and Si notes scenario-to-scenario static change over time). Is this incorrect, and/or what is it, exactly, that Ni is drawing from to create its perception?
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think I sort of understand what you mean, with all those things sort of suddenly combining for you to realize that they all when laced together point to "a storm is coming". I don't really understand how it's different from Si, though. All these things are... in motion? Like they're processes? Si could know - they're cows, - cows moo, - cows tend to look upwards when it's going to rain (I'm making this up), and Ne could quickly go from cows looking up -> rain. Versus Se would see cows looking up, the wind whistling, and the animals dispersing and crowding, and Ni would go from this combination of elements -> rain? Is this how Si is more linear and Ni is more abstract? Ni combines all the things at once? But then it's not really like Si is linear so much as it is concrete -- distinct. Same with Se. It sees individual elements moreso than wholes. Yes?
    I have been thinking about these questions. As an Ni-dom, I have largely taken this function for granted. This has been a good opportunity to attempt to analyze exactly what I do with it. My own understanding is thus still evolving, but I will provide what explanations I can.

    Ni obviously does not operate in a vacuum. As I mentioned, it is influenced by all my experiences, everything I have learned, observed, or understood. This includes not only previous ideas, but other ideas suggested by those ideas, later versions of those ideas, evolving interpretations, etc. Yes, change is large part of what Ni perceives, but the focus is on how it all comes together in the present: how the convolution of all relevant changes leads to the existing situation, and more importantly, to the future. It is a bit like taking a derivative, where we measure not the value of some property at a specific point in time, but rather how that property is changing at that moment. Another way to look at it is to contrast Ne's view of current external ideas with Ni's view of current internal ideas.

    This differs from Si primarily in that, unlike my imperfect analogy, it involves not factual or sensory observations, but meanings, interpretations, patterns: the classic N vs. S division. It is definitely not linear, but then I don't assume Si is. A real farmer will pull together disparate but concrete impressions to conclude that rain is coming. To extend the analogy, then, a "real Ni-dom" would mix that conclusion about the weather with a bunch of other stuff to "see" in an instant how that will play out for the success of the farm, and perhaps how to mitigate negative effects on the crops/livestock. The presumably Si-based farmer might reach the same conclusion, but through deliberate and logical association of facts. I suppose this does sound a bit more linear, but I don't think that is essential.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Maybe I've been imagining things, but to me, Ni curtness feels different from Si curtness. When the NJs I know are really mad and are curt, their curtness practically begs for elaboration; it always seems intentionally vague and like it's leading somewhere. Whereas Si curtness doesn't want it to lead anywhere, so it is very clear, and the tone is less leading and more "here are the exact facts of the matter without any elaboration, because I'm too tired to play games with you and I want you to understand me".
    Ni curtness often does have the same multi-dimensional meaning that Skylights was observing, in that people are not always sure how to take it. It can be very sarcastic, which some people will miss entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have DEFINITELY seen it in NTJs [manipulating information through wording and which details are included/omitted]. ENTJs do it very skillfully, I think. Though many of the INTJs I know will come across as suspiciously vague or curt when they leave out information.
    The trick is to keep the focus not on what you are leaving out, but what you are keeping in. I do this all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    INTJs are among the most respectful and dignified types I know. They err on the side of giving enough space and consideration. Though this can cause them problems they at least don't inflict themselves on others, in most cases, until the friendship is proven.
    This is certainly how I try to behave, and for the most part, I think I succeed. Even as a teenager working my first job in a pharmacy, I got compliments about how courteous and helpful I was to customers. People often thought I was older than I was. For me, there is some aspect of treating others how I want to be treated. I want to be given my space, treated with respect, and not be subject to others' assumptions. There is also an element of establishing distance in all this, the formality and privacy often associated with our type. It all goes together. Of course, if you want warmth, openness, and familiarity, you may find this unsatisfying.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    By Natrushka in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 11-07-2007, 04:55 AM

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