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Thread: Ask an INTJ

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This was an overall decent post on the subject. As a Ni-dom, though, I don't feel as though I am keeping track of abstract meanings over time. I am more seeing or generating them as they are right now. Of course they are influenced by everything I have ever seen or experienced, but those influences are not obvious or readily traceable.
    Thank you, and I appreciate the correction. So I have a question - in terms of Ni and Si, I thought that there was a significant aspect of time-tracking to both processes. Introverted Perception is getting ideas from inside one's mind, and I assumed the "bank" of data was essentially internal memories and concepts that are time-attentive (since Ni so often notes dynamic processes within time and Si notes scenario-to-scenario static change over time). Is this incorrect, and/or what is it, exactly, that Ni is drawing from to create its perception?

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Before I begin, let me just say how hilarious it is that during the course of our interactions on this thread, you have referenced the Uncertainty Principle, Schroedinger's Cat, and Aristotle, and I have cited a board game. I'm a little embarrassed!
    !

    Thanks for this, skylights; it's a really good post, and makes a lot of sense. I would love to see more INTJ elaboration on it. (Which might be a silly thing to ask for, considering what we're talking about. ) What you said about Si probably applies even more with STJs than, say, SFJs, because STJs have the Fi desire for authenticity, reinforcing their communication.
    @ first sentence - me too! @ second - probably true. Still, I do find with the SFJs I know, that deception is generally unusual. My mom, an ESFJ 2w1, is a brilliant master of the art of tact, and can get almost anyone to do almost anything for her. But the way she does it is less by leaving out or changing information (that seems more like an NJ tactic) and more through connecting personally with the other - for example, with customer service, she is always very clear about I know this is not your fault, and I know that it's hard to be the messenger, but I have (this) issue... - and in that way she is still very up front, but she has a sixth sense in terms of knowing how to "navigate the channels" of Fe to achieve her goals. Whereas my ENFJ 3w4 best friend is also very persuasive, but she constantly is manipulating the information itself by using highly specific wording and by omitting certain things and including others. It used to really piss me off because I would always suspect I was never getting the full story! An ENFJ I know at work does this, as well. I do not know what extent NTJs do this to, however. It is very characteristic of NFJs, as far as I know. It is particularly interesting when you get to hear multiple sides of the issue that they have presented. I guess that's what Ni feels like, to have all those different viewpoints. Ne is kind of similar in a way, but less opinionated, I guess.

    You talk about Si use in theory, as if you don't use it. How would you say you use it, as an NFP? Does any of the Si stuff you said apply to you as well?
    I definitely think I use it, but I think it more underlies my understanding of things and plays less of an active role in terms of my communication. What I said about it being easier for an N dom to seek further meaning than to focus on reality remains true for me, and it is more taxing for me to concentrate on facts than to look to possibilities. It's also important that you guys - both SJs and NJs, are driven by that Je to make external change, where I have less of that drive, so I more rarely feel the need to manipulate the external world to conform to my internal agenda. So not that it's moot, but I have so much less explicitly goal-direct behavior in general. I don't think I use Si so much the way you guys use it... not as material needed to shape the external world. It's more like a background foundation for me. My behavior in terms of situations like the scarf-compliment is really more driven by Ne and Fi. Maybe I'd say I liked the scarf if I was curious where they got it, for example, even if it wasn't my favorite. Because "like" doesn't necessarily mean "find attractive", after all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    To make an imperfect analogy, consider a farmer attempting to predict the weather. If Si facts are the almanac he looks at to see the historical weather patterns for his locale, Ni is the impression he forms standing out in his field and watching the clouds, listening to the wind, observing the animals, etc. The analogy is imperfect since the Ni representation is full of Se imagery, but just imagine that kind of all-encompassing, many-layered, interwoven, instantaneous awareness manifested in one's inner world. This is the best I can come up with for now.
    I think I sort of understand what you mean, with all those things sort of suddenly combining for you to realize that they all when laced together point to "a storm is coming". I don't really understand how it's different from Si, though. All these things are... in motion? Like they're processes? Si could know - they're cows, - cows moo, - cows tend to look upwards when it's going to rain (I'm making this up), and Ne could quickly go from cows looking up -> rain. Versus Se would see cows looking up, the wind whistling, and the animals dispersing and crowding, and Ni would go from this combination of elements -> rain? Is this how Si is more linear and Ni is more abstract? Ni combines all the things at once? But then it's not really like Si is linear so much as it is concrete -- distinct. Same with Se. It sees individual elements moreso than wholes. Yes?

  3. #703
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I sometimes do a version of your (2) here. For instance, if I have a student who has needed guidance on appropriate dress for formal presentations, I might compliment his attire when he appears suitably dressed. I consider it important to see that happy face only if I care about the person, or it gives me confirmation that some strategy is succeeding.
    Oh, I see. Yeah, I relate to that!
    The first highlighted part referred to my case (3). I will do this if I feel the need, but find it draining for the reason stated. I thought you might consider my statement in case (3) insincere because I in fact did not like the person's scarf, thus it would be almost a lie. I actually find it very difficult to tell a real lie, meaning to say something I know to be untrue. For this reason, I will confine my pseudo-smalltalk to things I actually mean. If I dislike the person's scarf, I will compliment something else, or chat about the weather, last night's game, or some other banal but commonplace topic. For me, the insincerity lies not in the falsehood of my comments but in my making them at all.
    Ah, so it's insincerity in the general sense, as opposed to the specific sense. I can see both sides of that, and I think I've felt frustration at both of those things at least once. But I've gotten used to the sort of insincerity you're talking about, since both of my parents (INTP and INFJ) use Fe a lot and have raised me in a sort of "You will make small talk and you will LIKE it" environment.

    @skylights, since you're an ENFP and involved in this conversation -- how do ENFPs feel about small talk? Seems like people who use tert or inferior Fi (like me and Coriolis) dislike it for the most part.
    Interesting that you use the analogy of a tessellation. This is an ordered geometric structure, that lends itself readily to interpretation as a repeated pattern, rather than each individual piece and its place in the strucure, much as a chemist might write the formula for a polymer.
    The reason why I chose the metaphor is that pieces in a tessellation, if it were like a puzzle, are identically shaped and easy to switch around. I was imagining them in all different colors (and not as identical; I should have clarified). Say you've got a blue piece (representing a particular piece of Si data that fits into the general whole), and when you look at the tessellation, you get used to that particular piece in that particular section being blue. Then the piece breaks, or something falls on it and dents it, or it becomes flawed in some other way. Technically speaking, with Si, it is very easy to get rid of that piece of data and replace it with a new one; the problem is that it's a red piece, not a blue one, and even though the piece fits in perfectly, it takes a little while for my Ne to get used to the tessellation as a whole, without that blue piece being there. The picture is different now.
    Your average INTJ is quite capable of the highlighted as well.
    Maybe I've been imagining things, but to me, Ni curtness feels different from Si curtness. When the NJs I know are really mad and are curt, their curtness practically begs for elaboration; it always seems intentionally vague and like it's leading somewhere. Whereas Si curtness doesn't want it to lead anywhere, so it is very clear, and the tone is less leading and more "here are the exact facts of the matter without any elaboration, because I'm too tired to play games with you and I want you to understand me". Like this moment from The Santa Clause, featuring Bernard (ISTJ):
    Bernard: The Santa Clause: In putting on the suit and entering the sleigh, the wearer waives any and all rights to any previous identity, real or implied, and fully accepts the duties and responsibilities of Santa Claus in perpetuity until such time that wearer becomes unable to do so by either accident or design.
    Scott: What does that mean?
    Bernard: Means you put on the suit, you're the Big Guy.
    Scott: I didn't put on a suit to...
    Bernard: [lividly] Try to understand this!
    Elves: Ooh...
    Bernard: [calmly] Let me explain something to you, okay? Toys have to be delivered. I'm not gonna do it. It's not my job. I'm just an elf. It's Santa's job, but Santa fell off the roof. Your roof. You read the card. You put on the suit. That clearly falls under the Santa Clause, so now you're Santa. Okay?
    Si curtness: Point A. Point B, Therefore, Point C. Now shut the hell up.
    I suppose which approach I take depends on the topic, my current mood, how much time I have, and the exact nature of the other person's behavior. I think as long as I am toying with someone, I am leaving them room to redeem themselves (or perhaps just more rope to hang themselves). I am more likely to resort to the cold, cutting assessment when they are beyond hope, as a parting salvo.
    The bolded is so interesting! Maybe I've been projecting this whole time, when I thought INTJs acted like that while in the mindset of "They're beyond hope anyway, so I might as well have fun with them". But I guess it makes sense, then, because it is leaving their options open in the Ni style, leaving room for them to exercise their free will and either, as you said, redeem themselves, or give themselves more rope on their noose.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    !

    @ first sentence - me too! @ second - probably true. Still, I do find with the SFJs I know, that deception is generally unusual. My mom, an ESFJ 2w1, is a brilliant master of the art of tact, and can get almost anyone to do almost anything for her. But the way she does it is less by leaving out or changing information (that seems more like an NJ tactic) and more through connecting personally with the other - for example, with customer service, she is always very clear about I know this is not your fault, and I know that it's hard to be the messenger, but I have (this) issue... - and in that way she is still very up front, but she has a sixth sense in terms of knowing how to "navigate the channels" of Fe to achieve her goals. Whereas my ENFJ 3w4 best friend is also very persuasive, but she constantly is manipulating the information itself by using highly specific wording and by omitting certain things and including others. It used to really piss me off because I would always suspect I was never getting the full story! An ENFJ I know at work does this, as well.
    I only know two ESFJs (and I don't know them very well), and I've never heard them speak poorly of anything-- neither of them ever complains, neither of them ever gets vocally upset (because they both silently fume, like I do, when they're angry), and they focus 99% of their social energy on other people when they're chatting with them. But of the three or four ENFJs I know, there is one who acts just like the ESFJs you describe, to the point that I mistook her for an ExTJ. (Of course, she's a 3w2, and the other ENFJs I know are 2w1 or 2w3, so that might make a difference in the drive and directness of their Fe.)
    I do not know what extent NTJs do this to, however.
    I have DEFINITELY seen it in NTJs. ENTJs do it very skillfully, I think. Though many of the INTJs I know will come across as suspiciously vague or curt when they leave out information.
    I definitely think I use it, but I think it more underlies my understanding of things and plays less of an active role in terms of my communication. What I said about it being easier for an N dom to seek further meaning than to focus on reality remains true for me, and it is more taxing for me to concentrate on facts than to look to possibilities. It's also important that you guys - both SJs and NJs, are driven by that Je to make external change, where I have less of that drive, so I more rarely feel the need to manipulate the external world to conform to my internal agenda. So not that it's moot, but I have so much less explicitly goal-direct behavior that
    That makes sense. How would you say it affects your perception?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  4. #704
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    Dear INTJs,

    How do I extricate myself from this situation while achieving the goals of maintaining my boundaries and hopefully my friendship?

    Basic info: My INTJ ex (dated for several years, been just friends for several years) is trying to use his INTJ Vampire Glamour on me to give him $6000 USD so that he can help his sister in a real estate purchase. I do not want to do this and I have told him that I am not comfortable. He is in Mr. Persuasive mode explaining how I will get my money back in 3 to 6 months and that I will get interested and that it is a guarenteed deal because even if something happens, he himself will pay me back.

    Now, I know him well enough to know that even if he had to take on an extra job with the sole purpose of paying me back, he would. However, this is quite a bit of money, and I like my security of knowing I have a decent sized savings account to protect me in case of an emergency. I also dislike the fact that I have said no, and he is still trying. His motivation is that he promised his sister he would get her $15,000 to help her with the loan, but he needs me to achieve it.

    His sister and her husband make quite a lot of money and have started buying up real estate "deals" to help get them even more income. They just bought a gym and now they want to buy some apartment building for $800,000.

    The timing of when I would get my 6k back has changed too, with him trying to persuade me to keep the 6k in there so I can get a "part of the rent income." Which seems very WTF to me.

    Ultimately I would like to keep his friendship because I have known him a long time, and I value him. However, last night I gave him my final No on the subject, and today I awoke to a text message saying "It's OK, don't feel bad. Only do what you are comfortable with. But, give me one chance to change your mind . When would be a good time to chat?"



    Any advice you are able to give is appreciated. <3

  5. #705
    Senior Member Tiger Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Dear INTJs,

    How do I extricate myself from this situation while achieving the goals of maintaining my boundaries and hopefully my friendship?

    Basic info: My INTJ ex (dated for several years, been just friends for several years) is trying to use his INTJ Vampire Glamour on me to give him $6000 USD so that he can help his sister in a real estate purchase. I do not want to do this and I have told him that I am not comfortable. He is in Mr. Persuasive mode explaining how I will get my money back in 3 to 6 months and that I will get interested and that it is a guarenteed deal because even if something happens, he himself will pay me back.

    Now, I know him well enough to know that even if he had to take on an extra job with the sole purpose of paying me back, he would. However, this is quite a bit of money, and I like my security of knowing I have a decent sized savings account to protect me in case of an emergency. I also dislike the fact that I have said no, and he is still trying. His motivation is that he promised his sister he would get her $15,000 to help her with the loan, but he needs me to achieve it.

    His sister and her husband make quite a lot of money and have started buying up real estate "deals" to help get them even more income. They just bought a gym and now they want to buy some apartment building for $800,000.

    The timing of when I would get my 6k back has changed too, with him trying to persuade me to keep the 6k in there so I can get a "part of the rent income." Which seems very WTF to me.

    Ultimately I would like to keep his friendship because I have known him a long time, and I value him. However, last night I gave him my final No on the subject, and today I awoke to a text message saying "It's OK, don't feel bad. Only do what you are comfortable with. But, give me one chance to change your mind . When would be a good time to chat?"



    Any advice you are able to give is appreciated. <3
    Text him back and say that that you already gave him one last chance to change your mind and he was not successful, he is not getting another. You have made up your mind and you are not going to be investing your money in real-estate or any other speculative venture. Tell him you value his friendship but you are starting to feel insulted by his persistence and you would appreciate it if he would not bring it up again.
    If he is so inconsiderate and trite, as to let your answer be a problem in the friendship, you are better off without it. It would be evidence that he promised his sister he would help because he considered your answer a guaranteed 'yes' - which says he thinks you are a pushover and easily manipulated.
    So, stick to your guns, or bunnies or whatever. No means no and he would do well to accept it and forget it.
    My advice, never invest any sum that is greater than the amount you could light on fire and not miss it. If you do invest money with a friend or family member, get the terms of interest and repayment in written contract, notarized and signed by all parties and witnessed.

    Edit: I would strongly suggest against calling him back lest he break through your resolve with the puppy dog routine, flattery and promises, etc. Just text him back. If you call him and he convinces you to do something you are not comfortable with. You will just despise him for it over the long run, which will be worse on the friendship than smoothing over his disappointment in you saying no.
    INTJ 5w4 sx/sp 584 ILI-Ni

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    Text him back and say that that you already gave him one last chance to change your mind and he was not successful, he is not getting another. You have made up your mind and you are not going to be investing your money in real-estate or any other speculative venture. Tell him you value his friendship but you are starting to feel insulted by his persistence and you would appreciate it if he would not bring it up again.
    If he is so inconsiderate and trite, as to let your answer be a problem in the friendship, you are better off without it. It would be evidence that he promised his sister he would help because he considered your answer a guaranteed 'yes' - which says he thinks you are a pushover and easily manipulated.
    So, stick to your guns, or bunnies or whatever. No means no and he would do well to accept it and forget it.
    My advice, never invest any sum that is greater than the amount you could light on fire and not miss it. If you do invest money with a friend or family member, get the terms of interest and repayment in written contract, notarized and signed by all parties and witnessed.

    Edit: I would strongly suggest against calling him back lest he break through your resolve with the puppy dog routine, flattery and promises, etc. Just text him back. If you call him and he convinces you to do something you are not comfortable with. You will just despise him for it over the long run, which will be worse on the friendship than smoothing over his disappointment in you saying no.
    Excellent points, Thank you. I am extremely trusting in my friendships (otherwise there doesn't seem to be a point to me) and I dislike everything about how he is going about this. He was sort of pushing the fact on me that he promised his sister he would help her, and how important that is to him. I didn't consider that it was evidence that he thinks I am a pushover. That is a good point. I always saw through his manipulation of others and he promised me he wouldn't use that on me ever. Hmm.

    I sent a text saying that this is my final decision. If he pushes me further on this then I will have some serious consideration on whether I want him as part of my life or not.

    Thanks for the help, ET. I apprecicate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Dear INTJs,

    How do I extricate myself from this situation while achieving the goals of maintaining my boundaries and hopefully my friendship?

    Basic info: My INTJ ex (dated for several years, been just friends for several years) is trying to use his INTJ Vampire Glamour on me to give him $6000 USD so that he can help his sister in a real estate purchase. I do not want to do this and I have told him that I am not comfortable. He is in Mr. Persuasive mode explaining how I will get my money back in 3 to 6 months and that I will get interested and that it is a guarenteed deal because even if something happens, he himself will pay me back.

    Now, I know him well enough to know that even if he had to take on an extra job with the sole purpose of paying me back, he would. However, this is quite a bit of money, and I like my security of knowing I have a decent sized savings account to protect me in case of an emergency. I also dislike the fact that I have said no, and he is still trying. His motivation is that he promised his sister he would get her $15,000 to help her with the loan, but he needs me to achieve it.

    His sister and her husband make quite a lot of money and have started buying up real estate "deals" to help get them even more income. They just bought a gym and now they want to buy some apartment building for $800,000.

    The timing of when I would get my 6k back has changed too, with him trying to persuade me to keep the 6k in there so I can get a "part of the rent income." Which seems very WTF to me.

    Ultimately I would like to keep his friendship because I have known him a long time, and I value him. However, last night I gave him my final No on the subject, and today I awoke to a text message saying "It's OK, don't feel bad. Only do what you are comfortable with. But, give me one chance to change your mind . When would be a good time to chat?"



    Any advice you are able to give is appreciated. <3
    Disclaimer: Not an INTJ. Feel free to ignore this.

    I love it when an INTJ tells you to do whatever you want while simultaneously trying to get you to do what they want. "No pressure." *Applies pressure.* "No pressure." *Applies even more pressure.* The accompanying smile, as if you have no idea how clever and smooth they're actually being, is always cute, too.

    In managing INTJs, one has to decide: how important is this? Is this really a big deal? If no, I usually give acquiescence, because 1. relationships are about giving and compromise, and 2. so I can selfishly enjoy how ridiculously adorable they are when they think they are actually a successful and epically cunning

    However, if it is actually really is a big deal, it becomes important to establish an appropriate precedent. 1. No one, but especially not an INTJ, will respect you or value you if you let people violate your sense of self-worth and respect and appropriate boundaries. They want someone soft, giving, and nurturing, but not spineless and manipulatable. And you shouldn’t be that anyway - for anyone. At that point it becomes necessary to directly and firmly, and most importantly, logically, express why you don’t want to do it, hear them out and be prepared to answer their objections in a satisfactory manner, but hold true to your sense of boundaries. Also communicate how much you value the openness in the relationship, and that you’re glad he felt comfortable enough to come to you with the request, and reiterate your trust in him etc. Also communicate that in that spirit, you appreciate that he will respect your thoughts/feelings on the matter.

    If he would stop being friends with you over this, frankly, that's not your problem and he can exit stage left if he so chooses. If you care more and are more invested than he is, that’s not really a true friendship.

  8. #708
    Senior Member Tiger Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Excellent points, Thank you. I am extremely trusting in my friendships (otherwise there doesn't seem to be a point to me) and I dislike everything about how he is going about this. He was sort of pushing the fact on me that he promised his sister he would help her, and how important that is to him. I didn't consider that it was evidence that he thinks I am a pushover. That is a good point. I always saw through his manipulation of others and he promised me he wouldn't use that on me ever. Hmm.

    I sent a text saying that this is my final decision. If he pushes me further on this then I will have some serious consideration on whether I want him as part of my life or not.

    Thanks for the help, ET. I apprecicate it.
    You can hold your thanks until you are convinced I earned it.
    INTJ 5w4 sx/sp 584 ILI-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Disclaimer: Not an INTJ. Feel free to ignore this.

    I love it when an INTJ tells you to do whatever you want while simultaneously trying to get you to do what they want. "No pressure." *Applies pressure.* "No pressure." *Applies even more pressure.* The accompanying smile, as if you have no idea how clever and smooth they're actually being, is always cute, too.
    We wait for the sigh of relief, then constrict after you exhale. Oldest technique in the book.
    (and we know you know, but it still works, so we don't care)
    INTJ 5w4 sx/sp 584 ILI-Ni

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    You can hold your thanks until you are convinced I earned it.
    Duly noted.

    Update: He replied to my text with a "As long as you're sure... I won't bring it up anymore."

    Sigh. It's almost like he has forgotten he wrote the book on INTJs for me. I have refrained from using my knowledge against him as I think it is a low blow to remind someone of their weaknesses. And also because I know that if I did I would have none of the clever subtext that NiTe yields and instead it will be a mace blow to the face delivered from the Witch King.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    We wait for the sigh of relief, then constrict after you exhale. Oldest technique in the book.
    (and we know you know, but it still works, so we don't care)
    I do much better with INTJs when I am interested in them because it's a dance. Otherwise, I prefer they remain where I left them last... studying birds in my shrubbery Ne maze.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Disclaimer: Not an INTJ. Feel free to ignore this.

    I love it when an INTJ tells you to do whatever you want while simultaneously trying to get you to do what they want. "No pressure." *Applies pressure.* "No pressure." *Applies even more pressure.* The accompanying smile, as if you have no idea how clever and smooth they're actually being, is always cute, too.

    In managing INTJs, one has to decide: how important is this? Is this really a big deal? If no, I usually give acquiescence, because 1. relationships are about giving and compromise, and 2. so I can selfishly enjoy how ridiculously adorable they are when they think they are actually a successful and epically cunning

    However, if it is actually really is a big deal, it becomes important to establish an appropriate precedent. 1. No one, but especially not an INTJ, will respect you or value you if you let people violate your sense of self-worth and respect and appropriate boundaries. They want someone soft, giving, and nurturing, but not spineless and manipulatable. And you shouldn’t be that anyway - for anyone. At that point it becomes necessary to directly and firmly, and most importantly, logically, express why you don’t want to do it, hear them out and be prepared to answer their objections in a satisfactory manner, but hold true to your sense of boundaries. Also communicate how much you value the openness in the relationship, and that you’re glad he felt comfortable enough to come to you with the request, and reiterate your trust in him etc. Also communicate that in that spirit, you appreciate that he will respect your thoughts/feelings on the matter.

    If he would stop being friends with you over this, frankly, that's not your problem and he can exit stage left if he so chooses. If you care more and are more invested than he is, that’s not really a true friendship.
    Ah yes, I know all of this with INTJs. Perhaps the heart of this matter is that I value him as a friend only and if he is making our friendship agreement null and void then I desire to cut him out entirely. However, from one angle of the situation this response looks extreme. Considering our long friendship of understandable ups and downs, this perhaps is just another blip in the road. Another angle shows him violating my trust by trying to influence me into something that has great potential to harm me. Another angle shows that he has his issues about loyalty and desires to give back to his sister something as he thinks he has not lived up to being the best brother he could have been in his life. And so forth, all around the situation and the many reasons for both of our stances.

    Perhaps my best course is to hold my ground and file this moment away for further study and as a warning about potential future behavior from him.

    Fortunately, he lives in another state so we never see each other anymore and 99% of our communciation is a 1-2 hour phone call every few months to catch up with the other.

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