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Thread: Ask an INTJ

  1. #581
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bionic View Post
    I don't like most ENTPs and ENFPs. I don't care about your library book. Respect wins over love.

    I don't use drinking as an emotional outlet. I find that to be a weakness in a person. A healthy individual needs to be able to effectively communicate and express their emotions. Resorting to alcohol or drugs for that is something I could never do.

    That sounds like a problem beyond type. He's probably just unhealthy and resorting to other means to self-medicate for his issues.
    I underlined what I have found frightening
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #582
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    What were the main challenges you faced when growing up and making Ni-Te-Fi work for you in the world?

    What I think is Ni seems very wrong very often, yet I "believe" it's right. I don't know how it works for you. It makes me convinced and doubting myself at the same time.

    Te seems to resemble an elephant in a china shop - very clumsy, quick to dismiss others' opinions, kind of blind and unimaginative.

    Fi is terrible to me. I can't get it but still trying. Mostly associate it with feelings of selfishness and justifying my behaviors.
    I can tell you only how (I think) I use these functions. Ni ruminates on lots of ideas - useful and worthless, weighty and trivial, deliberate and random. Without effort, these tend to coalesce into visions, some of which are obviously outrageous, some of which might be worth acting on. None are overly related to reality. The job of Te is to introduce reality, such as external constraints, as well as to do consistency checking. But what is the purpose? What action should be taken? Te is a great yardstick and can tell me that something is 76.2 cm long, but how long does it need to be? That is the role of Fi, to tell me what is important, what my priorities are. I think sometimes the initial Ni visions are fed a bit by Fi, since they can have a flavor of showing me "something better", or "something that ought to be done". But "better" and "ought" imply value judgments. Te can assess whether implementation of the vision will accomplish something I consider important.

    The problems you mention with function use sound like they come from just not being very practiced with them. Use/experience improves skill and comfort level. I remember being a child and having such strong ideas on how things should be, and being frustrated because I could not explain them. Developing Te was the answer. I learned to examine my intuitions very thoroughly before sharing or acting upon them. The more I did this, the more comfortable I got with just going with the Ni input if I had to.

    So, to gain confidence in your Ni ideas, analyze them until you get a feel for when they are usually right, and when unreliable. If Te feels like the bull in the china shop, keep practicing. Focus on your own internal thoughts rather than others. Te can also be helpful in checking internal consistency of Fi values. It is OK to be selfish, to a point. Even the most committed altruist is furthering his own idea of how the world should be; and it is hard to help others when one's own house is not in order. Those feelings of selfishness are just that -- feelings, emotional inputs to a process that you can choose to handle with logic. If you don't understand your own values and priorities, though, the whole structure is just a house of cards.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #583
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Is it inherent in INTJs to enjoy messing with people?

    One of the INTJs messes with everyone to the degree that it's threatening to taint my opinion of INTJs permanently. I know it shouldn't, and of all people I know that I should avoid type bias... but it just drives me up the wall.

    Here's an example from a recent discussion with her:

    Me: Point A.
    Her: Point B.
    Me: Acknowledgment of Point B, then countered by other information that would lead you to consider Point A.
    Her: Point B. (completely unchanged and not acknowledging anything I just said, as if I had said nothing)
    Me: (slightly flustered) Another angle at the flaws of Point B, and how it leads to Point A.
    Her: Point B. (not any more insistent; totally nonchalant, as if she's talking to herself and I'm not there??)
    (repeat x3 or 4)
    Me: Why are you ignoring me??
    Her: I'm not! Why are you taking this so personally?!?
    Me: Because you didn't acknowledge anything that I was saying!
    Her: I thought it was implied! It was just a discussion.
    Me: But it wasn't. It was me trying to discuss, and you not helping. How did you expect me to continue the discussion, if you just remained in one place and said the same thing over again?
    Her: (laughs) Well... I wanted to see how you'd react?

    I know this isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it's part of a bigger trend with her. This plus a recent interaction with an INTJ on the forum, where the INTJ described their style of interacting with people and it sounded pretty similar -- i.e. toying with people for fun to see how they react.

    But there are obviously nice INTJs! I have INTJ acquaintances that I really like! But I don't want to think that all INTJs go through life toying with people for fun. I consider that beyond a turn-off, so I really hope that all INTJs aren't like that?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #584
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    But I don't want to think that all INTJs go through life toying with people for fun. I consider that beyond a turn-off, so I really hope that all INTJs aren't like that?
    I'd take it as a compliment since we ignore boring people. We want to puzzle together the interesting ones. So we're collecting data and playing with you because you're unique and different and we're trying to understand.

    I enjoy hovering uncomfortably close into the personal space of friends and watching their reactions, especially when I happen to be following them up a flight of stairs on campus and they assume it's a random student instead of me. And I enjoy tapping people on the wrong shoulder so they look and find no one. Other than that I'm nice.

    EDIT having read the interchange:
    It's that same feeling you get when there's a fire alarm there. You want to pull it. Instead of causing trouble with fire departments, we just play with our friends. We're playing. It's us pushing a button because we're curious to see what happens.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  5. #585
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I'd take it as a compliment since we ignore boring people. We want to puzzle together the interesting ones. So we're collecting data and playing with you because you're unique and different and we're trying to understand.

    I enjoy hovering uncomfortably close into the personal space of friends and watching their reactions, especially when I happen to be following them up a flight of stairs on campus and they assume it's a random student instead of me. And I enjoy tapping people on the wrong shoulder so they look and find no one. Other than that I'm nice.

    EDIT having read the interchange:
    It's that same feeling you get when there's a fire alarm there. You want to pull it. Instead of causing trouble with fire departments, we just play with our friends. We're playing. It's us pushing a button because we're curious to see what happens.
    Yeah, I guess that makes sense. (Even though I never ever want to pull a fire alarm when I see one! ) Hard to think of it as a compliment when it makes me so angry. I just want to wear a sign, around her, that says "Please don't provoke me, because I would never provoke you".

    You're totally right, about her thinking I'm cool. We are friends, and we do hang out. But sometimes I feel like the teasing and provoking is relentless. And every time I snap from the relentless teasing (which has been at least four times in three months! when an ESTJ might rather once in three months, if ever), she thinks I'm being unreasonable/irrational, even when I tell her step by step my exact thought process through the entire series of events. At this point, I'm trying to maintain a little space, and remember that if she tries to start a debate with me, I need to find a way to back out of it, because I hate getting angry like that. She has started noticing this behavior and teasing me for it, even though she knows exactly why it's been happening and even though I think she feels a little guilty about it, because she really is a nice person. But if she knows what's going wrong and feels bad about it, why doesn't she stop, instead of continuing to provoke me??

    Is there a better way I could handle this? Do you understand where I'm coming from? I don't mean to offend and I feel like maybe I'd be ok with this trend of INTJ behavior if I considered it harmless (which it is, usually, right?) -- but it's not harmless with this INTJ because she keeps pushing my buttons for fun but doesn't know me well enough to know when the fuse is lit and when I'm about to blow. And I don't know if I want to let her do that the number of times that it would take her to figure it out.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #586
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    But if she knows what's going wrong and feels bad about it, why doesn't she stop, instead of continuing to provoke me??
    My guess is that she likes to exercise her power over you a bit. Pulling strings like that, proving to herself that she can make you do and feel (un)certain things, probably pleases her ego. I venture to say it is not a nice thing that is going on in her head when she plays with you; because in order to play, some things need to be played with. That does not necessarily mean, however, that she is out to hurt you. The whole thing, if I am correct, would be more about her abilities than about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Is there a better way I could handle this? Do you understand where I'm coming from? I don't mean to offend and I feel like maybe I'd be ok with this trend of INTJ behavior if I considered it harmless (which it is, usually, right?) -- but it's not harmless with this INTJ because she keeps pushing my buttons for fun but doesn't know me well enough to know when the fuse is lit and when I'm about to blow. And I don't know if I want to let her do that the number of times that it would take her to figure it out.
    If she is your friend, letting her know when the fuse it lit might actually be the best way to make her stop.

  7. #587
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    My guess is that she likes to exercise her power over you a bit. Pulling strings like that, proving to herself that she can make you do and feel (un)certain things, probably pleases her ego. I venture to say it is not a nice thing that is going on in her head when she plays with you; because in order to play, some things need to be played with. That does not necessarily mean, however, that she is out to hurt you. The whole thing, if I am correct, would be more about her abilities than about you.
    True. Although -- I'm not sure how "like her" this sounds? I mean, most of it sounds right, since yes, she knows she's pulling strings, and yes she's being manipulative, and some of that may have to do with power (although I think it's a lot more about mental stimulation than power, for her), but at the same time she does at the very least act like she feels bad when I finally do explode, and she has told me before that she never knows when I'm upset until I actually do blow up. So could it be both -- i.e. that she is toying with me, but she doesn't really have the skill set to toy with me effectively?
    If she is your friend, letting her know when the fuse it lit might actually be the best way to make her stop.
    You're definitely right. I need to remember to do that, and then remember to immediately back off as soon as I tell her, because sometimes she can respond by getting belligerently confused:

    Me: Okay, I think we're probably done. This conversation isn't really going anywhere and it's starting to frustrate me and I don't want to get into an argument.
    Her: It wasn't an argument! It wasn't personal! Why are you frustrated?!
    Me: We've had this exact conversation before -- I've told you why this sort of thing frustrates me. You know why I get upset.
    Her: Yeah, I know... but why?!

    So she'll still want to talk about it. My problem is: sometimes I get sucked in by that "why" statement, forgetting that it's manipulative, and it's my response to the temptation that gets me into an argument. So I should probably train myself to stand strong, in that situation.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #588
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Also, I should specify that the reason why I'm so turned off by that sort of game-playing is that it strikes me as both dishonest and discourteous -- and honesty and courtesy are two of the values that I hold most highly.

    So, re-iterating/re-phrasing my question: Do all/most INTJs play those games? If so, how do nice INTJs do it, and are nice INTJs better at seeing their friend's boundaries and avoiding them than the INTJ I'm talking about?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #589
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    True. Although -- I'm not sure how "like her" this sounds? I mean, most of it sounds right, since yes, she knows she's pulling strings, and yes she's being manipulative, and some of that may have to do with power (although I think it's a lot more about mental stimulation than power, for her), but at the same time she does at the very least act like she feels bad when I finally do explode, and she has told me before that she never knows when I'm upset until I actually do blow up. So could it be both -- i.e. that she is toying with me, but she doesn't really have the skill set to toy with me effectively?
    She may sense frustration in you, but the only clear signals she receives are your words and actions. So unless the latter appropriately indicate your level of anger, she can pretend that it is just a game - which, for her, it may very well be. For the effects of her toying with you make two appearances: internally, where only you can see them, and externally, where she can enjoy them as long as you do not seem too distraught. Thus the question whether or not she has the skill set to toy with you effectively can, depending on what stage you look at, also be answered in two ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Also, I should specify that the reason why I'm so turned off by that sort of game-playing is that it strikes me as both dishonest and discourteous -- and honesty and courtesy are two of the values that I hold most highly.

    So, re-iterating/re-phrasing my question: Do all/most INTJs play those games? If so, how do nice INTJs do it, and are nice INTJs better at seeing their friend's boundaries and avoiding them than the INTJ I'm talking about?
    I can only speak for myself. I tend not to play with my friends' feelings because I find it childish. I do play games of confusion, hypothetical counter-arguments, harsh rebuttals, though; but they are games, impersonal and merely intended to irritate a little so as to invoke doubt and rethinking.

  10. #590
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Is it inherent in INTJs to enjoy messing with people?

    I know this isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it's part of a bigger trend with her. This plus a recent interaction with an INTJ on the forum, where the INTJ described their style of interacting with people and it sounded pretty similar -- i.e. toying with people for fun to see how they react.
    Some INTJs probably toy with people for fun. I suppose I do it on occasion, but usually only with my friends, who catch on and know it's just a game; or with people who are being persistently stupid and won't back off.

    Generally, however, if I toy with people to see a reaction, it is for a purpose, and serious business. Manipulating others' feelings is never the goal. It almost always involves people I don't know well yet, and is one way I get to know them, test their limits and capabilities. If someone seems put out by it, I stop immediately. I know what I need to know by then.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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