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Thread: Ask an INTJ

  1. #411
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I see. In terms of the bolded part, this is where it can *sometimes* (not always) break down for me in communications with Te users. If I accept their point, then all is well. But, if I begin to refute it, it often seems to get hostile - I'll chalk this up as not being anyone's *fault* per se, but just a result of how the 2 of us are communicating (or failing to communicate at that moment). It's as if I've properly refuted it, but they they're angry with me and still not buying into it. I guess it can be (a) they don't believe that I properly refuted it, or (b) as one of the ENTJ's said, maybe when they mull it over, they will realize that I had a point.

    It just seems like if I choose the "accept what Te user says" route, then I'm in good standing with them. If I choose the "refute what Te user said route", then I'm opening a HUGE can of worms and arguments and maybe even mutual hostility - which I don't want. Let's face it - a good debate is fun once in a while, but sometimes it turns ugly and can get in the middle of friendships and work relationships, and that's what I'm trying to avoid.
    It's probably a communication issue, you're not following the Te code, a code deeply involved with the debate form. Debate IME is not necessarily about having a correct point, it's more about getting to make a point and acrobatics of the mind - NTJs do it elegantly, with skill and precision, you might be frustrating their art(ifice?).

    Form and valid content need not be mutually exclusive here and the mental pingpong is actually a great way to provoke new insight (but in the sense of the other person's response inspiring something in *you*, not in the Ne new data-gathering sense)...which can then be interpellated later on. In that way it's just an enjoyable means to an end.

    Of course things get a lot easier when NTJs learn that debate is just one form of many that can be used to relate to the world, that it carries within it certain (restrictive) assumptions and dangers. Which opens the question as to what debate *should* be like.

  2. #412
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I have specific scenarios in my head where a Te user would say something very "bold" IRL, either to me or to a 3rd party.

    Te user: You're an incompetent idiot.
    Other person: Obviously you're the idiot if you've been stuck doing manual labor your whole life.
    Te user:

    Te user: This is the 3rd day in a row you've been 10 minutes late.
    Other person: Yeah, but the job always gets done.
    Te user: Look, don't argue with me or you'll be out of here.
    Other person: *grabs personal belongings* Bye! Good luck on the rest of the project.
    Te user: What did I do that was so bad?
    You have odd ideas of what constitutes a Te comment. To me, in conversation 1, "you're an incompetent idiot" is just an insult. A real Te criticism would point out exactly what the other person did that was idiotic. The Te reply to the other person's comment about manual labor would then be something like, "That is irrelevant. You still did x and y, which are idiotic because . . . "

    In the second conversation, "look, don't argue with me . . . " sounds much more Fi than Te. It is a threat, not a valid criticism. A Te reply would be, "yes, the job gets done, but you know we always start the day with a conference call with the customer, and when you walk in late every day, it makes a bad impression." Or even, "yes, but the rules say everyone must be at their desk by 9:00."

    As Jim stated (very well), I look for push-back that consists of facts and logic, or at least clearly acknowledged emotional preferences.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #413
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
    ENTP girls is a strange breed.
    Why is that? Mind to elaborate a little?

  4. #414
    Senior Member Rex's Avatar
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    Its just my impression. I have not encountered many enough, so i guess i should take it back. But i would say that your kind asking for more info does not have ENTP writhen over it.
    a ENTP girl i encountered was very critical to Myers and briggs and it was justified. She sure was a T tho. she and i was having a discussion about MBTI.

    some OT. Some of my easiest conversations online i have had with a INFJ. I did hurt her feelings a bit but she came back after she had been thinking it through and seen my logic/honnesty.
    Epic derailment:
    wierd memory work->Tamagochi->tetris->Starcraft2->thugs->Chess->german techno->Love parade->disaster->death..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1wH2...eature=related

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    Why is that? Mind to elaborate a little?
    They have 6 arms, 12 legs and 9 eyes. Very strange indeed.

  6. #416
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Have you consider if it is you making it a personal issue?
    Well, yeah, I'm prone to consider *all* possibilities, including ones where I have gone wrong. On the other hand, I refuse to believe that the miscommunications are ALWAYS my fault and never the Te user's fault. Usually, it's probably going to be somewhere in the middle. You know, like when you have 2 sides of a story, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle of those two stories.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #417
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    It's probably a communication issue, you're not following the Te code, a code deeply involved with the debate form. Debate IME is not necessarily about having a correct point, it's more about getting to make a point and acrobatics of the mind - NTJs do it elegantly, with skill and precision, you might be frustrating their art(ifice?).

    Form and valid content need not be mutually exclusive here and the mental pingpong is actually a great way to provoke new insight (but in the sense of the other person's response inspiring something in *you*, not in the Ne new data-gathering sense)...which can then be interpellated later on. In that way it's just an enjoyable means to an end.

    Of course things get a lot easier when NTJs learn that debate is just one form of many that can be used to relate to the world, that it carries within it certain (restrictive) assumptions and dangers. Which opens the question as to what debate *should* be like.
    I see. This is good feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You have odd ideas of what constitutes a Te comment. To me, in conversation 1, "you're an incompetent idiot" is just an insult. A real Te criticism would point out exactly what the other person did that was idiotic. The Te reply to the other person's comment about manual labor would then be something like, "That is irrelevant. You still did x and y, which are idiotic because . . . "

    In the second conversation, "look, don't argue with me . . . " sounds much more Fi than Te. It is a threat, not a valid criticism. A Te reply would be, "yes, the job gets done, but you know we always start the day with a conference call with the customer, and when you walk in late every day, it makes a bad impression." Or even, "yes, but the rules say everyone must be at their desk by 9:00."

    As Jim stated (very well), I look for push-back that consists of facts and logic, or at least clearly acknowledged emotional preferences.
    I should say that in no way, shape, or form do I experience these type of Te comments *all the time* from Te users. I chose extreme examples, where the Te user in question sort of "went off the deep end* or lost his cool a little bit. I chose examples where the Te user resorted to brute force instead of their normal way of going about things.

    If it provides any relief, I'm starting to believe the 2nd person was ESTJ rather than NTJ - and the first person was definitely ESTJ. Those poor ESTJ's - everybody is always picking on them. And I'm slowly becoming convinced that INTJ's can do no wrong. I keed, I keed.

    Thanks for all the valuable feedback guys.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Well, yeah, I'm prone to consider *all* possibilities, including ones where I have gone wrong. On the other hand, I refuse to believe that the miscommunications are ALWAYS my fault and never the Te user's fault. Usually, it's probably going to be somewhere in the middle. You know, like when you have 2 sides of a story, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle of those two stories.
    In my experience dealing with Fe sensitive individuals tends to go thusly.

    Ti flavour NT : Blah de blah and thus blah blah!
    Te flavour NT : Consider fact this, doesn't seem likely/right
    Ti flavour NT : This is an important idea don't you support me, aren't you my friend/but but but, pissing contest of logical rhetoric because you can't consider that?!
    Te flavour NT : Look its an observation and the logic doesn't follow / do you really expect me to accept you trying to piss on me rather than considering the observation?
    Ti flavour NT : YOU ARE A MONSTER WHO MAKES ME UPSET, moan moan moan.
    Te flavour NT : This is why you can't have a reasonable impersonal discussion with Ti flavour NT, because ever idea and thought is a personal issue.
    Ti flavour NT : This is why you can't have a reasonable discussion with Te flavour NT, because they keep trying to prove me wrong AND I WIN.
    Te flavour NT : *shrugs* How ironic. Cool story

  9. #419
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Heh. I've criticized Fe myself for other reasons. For an example, see here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ipulative.html

    So, yeah, my inferior Fe is probably a bear to deal with. I'm guessing Fi might have some chinks in its armor as well...although I'd probably be hard pressed to find anyone willing to admit it.

    So, the frustration from Ti users point of view (or at least mine at times), is that the Te user often wants to admit no fault...EVER. For ANYTHING. NEVER. Ti users will often consider what they have done wrong, they will consider the flaws in their own personality. And knowing that EVERYONE has inherent flaws, when we see flaws in others, we may go to them and ask them "Hey what's up with this flaw of yours? Help me understand better so we can communicate more effectively. Oh, and by the way, I know I have flaw x as well, so that might be playing a role too." We're not so concerned with "being able to prove that we're right". We just want to understand and improve on the communications. But, the Te user (or some of them) will often respond in a way as if to say, "Well, the problem obviously couldn't be my fault, therefore, let's focus on you and what you could be doing wrong." It's difficult to have a 1-sided conversation like that. Both parties have to be willing to consider what they maybe could have done better.

    If you're saying "we absolutely only want facts. Nothing else." Then, my response would probably be - I guess I'll only communicate with Te users if I need a "yes" or "no". I won't bother them with the more complicated issues in life, the issues that have some "grey area" and that require diplomatic discussions, with both people willing to consider what they can each do better.

    I dunno - sometimes seems like you can't "get anywhere" with certain Te users. You're just banging your head up against a wall because they aren't going to consider their part in something that has gone awry. By asking certain Te users, "how come I have this recurring issue with you...and others have the same issue with you...why is that?"........I'm just barking up the wrong tree with that question. Better to just let it go and accept that's how they are.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Heh. I've criticized Fe myself for other reasons. For an example, see here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ipulative.html

    So, yeah, my inferior Fe is probably a bear to deal with. I'm guessing Fi might have some chinks in its armor as well...although I'd probably be hard pressed to find anyone willing to admit it.

    So, the frustration from Ti users point of view (or at least mine at times), is that the Te user often wants to admit no fault...EVER. For ANYTHING. NEVER. Ti users will often consider what they have done wrong, they will consider the flaws in their own personality. And knowing that EVERYONE has inherent flaws, when we see flaws in others, we may go to them and ask them "Hey what's up with this flaw of yours? Help me understand better so we can communicate more effectively. Oh, and by the way, I know I have flaw x as well, so that might be playing a role too." We're not so concerned with "being able to prove that we're right". We just want to understand and improve on the communications. But, the Te user (or some of them) will often respond in a way as if to say, "Well, the problem obviously couldn't be my fault, therefore, let's focus on you and what you could be doing wrong." It's difficult to have a 1-sided conversation like that. Both parties have to be willing to consider what they maybe could have done better.

    If you're saying "we absolutely only want facts. Nothing else." Then, my response would probably be - I guess I'll only communicate with Te users if I need a "yes" or "no". I won't bother them with the more complicated issues in life, the issues that have some "grey area" and that require diplomatic discussions, with both people willing to consider what they can each do better.

    I dunno - sometimes seems like you can't "get anywhere" with certain Te users. You're just banging your head up against a wall because they aren't going to consider their part in something that has gone awry. By asking certain Te users, "how come I have this recurring issue with you...and others have the same issue with you...why is that?"........I'm just barking up the wrong tree with that question. Better to just let it go and accept that's how they are.
    I don't think you have fully thought this through.

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