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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrencemcb View Post
    Hahaha i shouldn't argue this with a parent. of course it would be nice of me to help out more so they could have some time to get ahead. but they don't ask. and i feel it's fine if I don't help b/c if i did--i'd never see a return on that sacrifice of mine. My father would just watch more television. My mother would read more bible. Neither of them are firm enough (at least as of right now) to aspire to something greater than what they are now.

    Fortunately i don't have family to support and won't until i'm sure i can do it with fiscal ease, and am pleased enough with my personal development that I can ignore it for the ensuing 20 years while I rear a child or childs.

    the thing is with my father--he's not sacrificing anything for his family. he's only looking out for himself, being a fellow NT, and occasionally gives out of guilt. he has a house for himself, and so what if I, the son, keep living there--I doesn't consume very much. I even buy some of my own food. my dad makes lunch for himself, and what's mixing a little extra tuna salad for the others. how much effort does it take to include an extra can of tuna? or an extra egg in the omelette? let someone exist in a room that would otherwise be unused? He spends inordinate amounts of money on things he doesn't need. That's why we don't have any living room furniture. ----->
    Heh. He doesn't like you guys either. He made a commitment and he's going to follow through, and he'll do the mundane chores to keep the wife off his back, but you can't make him like it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrencemcb View Post
    if he was any sort of a worthwhile human being he would level with me, recruit my help with chores so he can get off his ass and look for a job he can actually do. if he really wanted to get ahead he would be taking pains to do so. it's a matter of desire, and here--it just ain't is.
    After my parents breaking up over the course of 10 years and then having it out with my father over why he never said anything, I got the response "well it's not the kind of thing you feel comfortable talking about with your own son". Perhaps your father is depressed and needs help but doesn't see you as an "appropriate" helper? That doesn't mean he thinks less of you... just that he has witnessed your birth and development.. it gives a person a different perspective.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think therein lies the heart of your trouble. Perhaps if that were tackled then you wouldn't hide in your music so readily? Perhaps your father too?
    ya had to kick me in the taint? of course that would be the logical thing to do--deal with the source. but that could take years to fix! i'd have to manipulate both of them into new jobs. and by then anyway i'd be gone living with the perennial love of my life. it's true i could very well save their marriage. they've talked about divorce after my sister is out of high school. but is it worth sacrificing my time to fix their ignorant conundrums? to an NF maybe. but me? all wrapped up in me? i think probably not. and actually, upon second thought, I don't think i could save their marriage, just make it less bitter when they gather the will to go through with divorce. They're an abysmal match.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    It's so not your job to fix your parent's marriage, but I don't think you realize just how easy it is to get in your father's horrible, miserable position. He's trapped, probably biding his time. Whatever you think about the way he's dealt with and is dealing with his situation, I think he gets a little respect from me, at least, for trying to hang in there and play along as much as he has.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrencemcb View Post
    ... My question to forum members is are any of you like me? Does music confuse you, make you listless, make you disappear into your mind. Does television/movies hypnotize you, pacify you, make you forget time, lose your drive? Make you generally fail at life, forget stuff, be chronically late?
    You make an interesting point. Regarding music, there is a huge issue as to 'what' music. Most of the commercialized music is very repetitive with few interesting pattern relationships. I haven't listened to the top 40 radio is years.

    There is music that heightens my awareness more than just about anything else. Beethoven's last piano sonatas and quartets are one example. Asian classical music is quite foreign to western ears, but it makes a profound impact on me as well. Music that challenges my ears and is art imbued with philosophical meaning and layers of patterns that my conscious mind could never perceive, is what strengthens me as a person. Still, though, there are times when only silence will do.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    After my parents breaking up over the course of 10 years and then having it out with my father over why he never said anything, I got the response "well it's not the kind of thing you feel comfortable talking about with your own son". Perhaps your father is depressed and needs help but doesn't see you as an "appropriate" helper? That doesn't mean he thinks less of you... just that he has witnessed your birth and development.. it gives a person a different perspective.
    shit .... ....... shit! i wasn't expecting to actually get any good advice. but i don't mean of course that i thought it wasn't in your capacity, just that no one would want to bother with a stranger's situation.

    Fact: my father is definitely depressed, and i know he'd like to reestablish a rapport with me, but that would mean fessing up to my own ineffectual goings on: "So what you been doing?" "nothing, you?" "nothing". i'd like to wait until i get bragging rights to something. like winning some scholarships.

    and I know he'd be weird about discussing his marriage with me, me being his spawn, but i stopped being his son when i stopped admiring him and that was 5 years ago. i'm really just another human in relation to him. being a haughty intellectual and all he probably thinks i couldn't offer any good insight on relationships, even though i've been with my girlfriend for 6 years. but that's ANOTHER dilemma. that has to be a secret. i can't be totally honest with him because i've got secrets from him. stuff i can't trust him to have a good reaction too. so i don't know if it would be good to try to be his friend while also being dishonest with him.

  7. #27
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrencemcb View Post
    I don't think i could save their marriage, just make it less bitter when they gather the will to go through with it. They're an abysmal match.
    Ok let me be open with you (please don't take offence at any of this btw but it's concentrated experience).

    Your parents are individuals. They exists outside of the marriage. It would seem that neither is happy or that your father is being pecked for not conforming and your mother is stressed because life isn't all roses (that's part assumption, part intuition and partially what my parents were like). Basically the marriage has no effect at present. If you ask or confront they will probably evade (I'm not sure as I don't know them at all so forgive my inaccuracy). So to approach from the other end why not try to engage your parents as individuals? Watch a film with your father and then try to get him to open up about it. Ask him what film you should watch to experience "proper" scifi or something. Then do the same for and with your mother. Hopefully you'll get some positivity back into the household even if they do eventually break up.

    As for motivation, having happy parents is a wonderful thing to have through your life. Having parents who are depressed or miserable I'd think would have a conversely devastating effect on your life.

    Myself. I now have one living parent and I get on with him very well now. So well in fact that despite him being a private ENTJ kinda guy he told me that he thinks the marriage broke up cause they had kids too early (vicious or what!!!). Oh and he's a lot happier now... he's just on the prowl somedays which can be unnerving.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #28
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrencemcb View Post
    and I know he'd be weird about discussing his marriage with me, me being his spawn, but i stopped being his son when i stopped admiring him and that was 5 years ago. i'm really just another human in relation to him. being a haughty intellectual and all he probably thinks i couldn't offer any good insight on relationships, even though i've been with my girlfriend for 6 years. but that's ANOTHER dilemma. that has to be a secret. i can't be totally honest with him because i've got secrets from him. stuff i can't trust him to have a good reaction too. so i don't know if it would be good to try to be his friend while also being dishonest with him.
    At what age did you start thinking you could kick his ass?
    At what age do you expect him to acknowledge that you can kick his ass?
    (That should show you the disparity between you thinking your no longer just his boy and him seeing it too. It's about 6-10 years in my experience.)

    Oh and if he's to be your equal then do not fear him. So what if he yells? You tell him what's wrong regardless and then stand there ready to take whatever burden your actions bring. That should fill him with more pride than anything else. Just don't expect the swat to turn suddenly into a pat on the head. These things take time. Especially parents. Their like real slow at this kinda stuff

    *wonders if Cafe will ever speak to him again*
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #29
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    At what age did you start thinking you could kick his ass?
    At what age do you expect him to acknowledge that you can kick his ass?
    (That should show you the disparity between you thinking your no longer just his boy and him seeing it too. It's about 6-10 years in my experience.)

    Oh and if he's to be your equal then do not fear him. So what if he yells? You tell him what's wrong regardless and then stand there ready to take whatever burden your actions bring. That should fill him with more pride than anything else. Just don't expect the swat to turn suddenly into a pat on the head. These things take time. Especially parents. Their like real slow at this kinda stuff

    *wonders if Cafe will ever speak to him again*
    I've just been on both sides of things. I know what it is to have a selfish, self-absorbed parent, but as a parent, I also know, that despite my mother's self-absorption and the current status of my relationship with her, she did do a lot for me.

    I know I screw up a lot with my kids and that, but for the grace of God, my husband could be in this boy's dad's position. It just so happens that we lucked out and are still in love. Basically that means that my NT tolerates the kids and the job he doesn't much care for out of love for me. Eventually, it will be just us and he can chase his dreams again and I will delightedly go along. I don't know what the kids will think of him one day, when they have a better understanding of him putting his education and career dreams on hold so that they could have a better life, but I hope that he will get a little appreciation for it from them. He certainly has it from me.

    And of course you have to take it easy introducing things about yourself to your parents that they may disapprove of (especially if you are not self-supporting and engaging in activities that might give you someone new to support). To your parents, you will always, at least a little bit, be that frail, beautiful, little screaming, pooping bundle they brought home from the hospital.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Have you tried sympathizing with him about this ? I realize that this wouldn't have a direct effect on the noise your OP spoke of, but it might serve as a sort of temporary "family gathering" in lieu of a special room for that purpose.
    well what's funny is I can sympathize with him very precisely; my dream is to become a successful painter, and like him I'm very shy and unsure about my work. From what I've been told my behavior now mirrors his when he was younger--refusing to showcase my work to avoid judgement, and mostly refusing to work at all because of the fear of producing bad work.

    the moral thing to do would be to take an active role in each other's development, coaching & critiquing, aaaaand, i don't know, i guess we'll get around to it eventually. i don't know when that particular important step might be taken; i can't even decide how to sort out my own priorities right now; i'm still grappling with my amorphous identity, figuring out what my real purposes should be, what's important to me. I don't want to take that first step until i'm sure my foot's on right.

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