[NT] Nihilism

[COLORATURA]

"Nihilism (pron.: /ˈnaɪ.ɨlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.ɨlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more putatively meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological or metaphysical/ontological forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that reality does not actually exist..."

I read once that INTP's struggle with this. The older I get, the more I am feeling this way.

I was raised devoutly religious, but as I got older, I started picking all the fallacies in religion apart. I sometimes wish, however, that I was more ignorant. Ignorance is bliss, right? I know that believing in religion, and thinking that all the pretty stories is probably more pleasant than feeling like nothing matters.

...Then, I think, who am I fooling?? I AM IGNORANT!! I am, after all, this little tiny speck floating through space & time. WTF could I actually know?? WTF could ANYONE actually know?? I have even argued & doubted science/scientists. I see science on the same level of religion. Maybe it is more accurate, BUT it's all still based on HUMAN DATA & experiments. Whose to say they were done correctly, and whose to say that just b/c we observe something as one way that is TRULY that way??

I found this orgasmic website (yes, I said orgasmic) that explains everything in the most simple, logical manner. I LOVE it! However, it makes me feel like it IS true, nothing does matter.
On Truth & Reality: Philosophy Physics Metaphysics of Space, Wave Structure of Matter. Famous Science Art Quotes.

Do you struggle with similar questions? Any thoughts??

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

If nothing matters, then humans would not be wired to love nor appreciate good.

The fact that we do, means that we are not, in our essence, dual creatures, even if we live in a dualistic, or trialistic, environ.

Our 'heart' (soul) leans toward something Good and Pure, even if part of our being--our earthly bodies and minds--is at home in our world, the part of us that isn't makes all the difference, skewing us toward something asymmetrical and otherworldly. We are unique in this as far as we know.

Therefore Nihilism is a fallacious notion, because humans always strive to betterment, or would if they could.

 

[Aesthete]

If nothing matters, then humans would not be wired to love nor appreciate good.

The fact that we do, means that we are not, in our essence, dual creatures, even if we live in a dualistic, or trialistic, environ.

Our 'heart' (soul) leans toward something Good and Pure, even if part of our being--our earthly bodies and minds--is at home in our world, the part of us that isn't makes all the difference, skewing us toward something asymmetrical and otherworldly. We are unique in this as far as we know.

Therefore Nihilism is a fallacious notion, because humans always strive to betterment, or would if they could.

That is the intrinsic value nature gives to everything: "the Will to Power". However, that doesn't mean that just because the Will is the most natural thing it should be followed; in fact, I think Schopenhauer was correct in wishing to renounce the Will (however he thought it was the "Will to Life", which is largely similar to "the Will to Power", yet slightly different - I view the Will to Life as a part of the Will to Power, not as something different) as that ultimately sets us free to be our real Self, not just ourselves.

Now, back to the topic of nihilism. If there is no such thing as meaning, how do we grow an idea of it? I mean, if meaning does not exist, what is this "meaning" we think ought to exist for there to truly be a meaning? C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity likens this to a debate on the existence of straight lines; if there is no such thing as a straight line, how can we possibly develop a concept of such a thing as a straight line to debate on? Or - again from Lewis - if there was no light in the world, how could we possibly say "There is no light" if the only thing we know is darkness?

Do you get what I'm saying?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Therefore Nihilism is a fallacious notion, because humans always strive to betterment, or would if they could.

Except nihilists.

Nihilism is often misunderstood anyway. It isn't so much that nothing matters as much as it means something that can't be proven has no meaning.

 

[Aesthete]

By the way, I've noticed nihilism quite a lot amongst INTPs - not so much because they're partisans of nihilism, but just because that's the way they are: meaning is a thing that seems to be provided by some sort of feeling function (probably Fi the most), but they just don't work with that. As well, I think they don't want to give any meaning to anything until they've given it thought for a while.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

That is the intrinsic value nature gives to everything: "the Will to Power". However, that doesn't mean that just because the Will is the most natural thing it should be followed; in fact, I think Schopenhauer was correct in wishing to renounce the Will (however he thought it was the "Will to Life", which is largely similar to "the Will to Power", yet slightly different - I view the Will to Life as a part of the Will to Power, not as something different) as that ultimately sets us free to be our real Self, not just ourselves.

I had this discussion with my ENTJ son recently. He was arguing Will to Power was the basic motivator for man, and I was arguing Will to Love was. We ended up with (well, not sure he ever admitted defeat, lol, but we were both defeated) Will to Life as the main motivator. Which is one of the reasons I really like Arthur Schopenhauer over Nietzsche. Most humans' motivations, would in the end, come down to survival instincts, though some would be willing to die for love or power.

God gives us Free Will because he is a transcendent sovereign Lord and Master. He is immanent as well, I believe, but he always waits for us to allow him in, though he does manipulate our lives at times. If we did not have free will, we would not likely be posting here on this forum, or doing any one of the million things we do in our mundane daily lives.

Now, back to the topic of nihilism. If there is no such thing as meaning, how do we grow an idea of it?

There is meaning, which I spoke to in my post already.

I mean, if meaning does not exist, what is this "meaning" we think ought to exist for there to truly be a meaning? C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity likens this to a debate on the existence of straight lines; if there is no such thing as a straight line, how can we possibly develop a concept of such a thing as a straight line to debate on? Or - again from Lewis - if there was no light in the world, how could we possibly say "There is no light" if the only thing we know is darkness?

Do you get what I'm saying?

Maayybee......You have never known goodness, so you cannot believe it exists? But that nihilism, which basically means the study of nothingness, seems like a good fit for your worldview?

I would say that your perspective is skewed, and is is inaccurate. Skewed because there is meaning and there is goodness in life, exemplified by all men being attracted to love and goodness; and inaccurate because you speak as one who has been made aware of such things, not as one who is still ignorant of them.

Helen Keller never knew sounds or sights but that did not mean they did not exist. They did not exist for her. That is, until a loving and caring teacher found a way to bridge that huge gap for her.

Except nihilists.

Nihilism is often misunderstood anyway. It isn't so much that nothing matters as much as it means something that can't be proven has no meaning.

It just means the study or belief in nothingness. Not even black holes are nothingness. Much less this colorful and vibrant world we live in. If it were nothingness we would not conceive of anything. Because all would be void and naught. Or we would have as many negations as posations (?antonym if anyone knows it plz) which would cancel everything out.

But we do not. We have a skewing toward wanting good and wanting love. Therefore life does have meaning, whether we feel that or not.

 

[Elfboy]

fuck nihilism. I don't care if it's rational or not, it makes people feel empty and unfulfilled and leads to depression and hopelessness. meaning is not a rational phenomenon and, if you don't allow it to exist, it will slip away from you. remember that knowledge is the servant of self actualization and not the other way around.

 

[COLORATURA]

I don't believe much CAN be proven. That is my problem. If it can't be, how can you for sure say it exists?
Things aren't always what they appear to be. How do I not know that everything I THINK I know isn't in fact, not? I question EVERYTHING. Even my own experiences & what I think I know.

I struggle with questions like this constantly.

Just because we have a definition of "meaning," does that mean it exists? I can make up a magical fairyland in a story tomorrow and call it Mootermoofeyland. If it were to become popular, everyone would know what Mootermoofeyland was, but it still wouldn't exist. Or would it?

 

[Aesthete]

Watch out, though: Schopenhauer didn't view the Will to Life as a good thing, but rather as a trap for the true Self - a sort of samsara.

I made a mistake by turning myself into Schopenhauer. I fiddled around with his ideas and came to my own conclusions and beliefs - though not all of my conclusions and beliefs arise from Schopenhauer.

Hmm...Schopenhauer actually disliked the Will to Life because it brought about too much suffering. Of course, there's more to it to that, but that's the underlying idea.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Well, of course freedom of will exists: if it didn't, everything we do would just be a matter of natural compulsions and chemicals in our brains, which means that there would be no way of knowing anything, and thus, if you say "There is no such thing as free will and all is physical, so everything comes from a cause", and you're asked for your reasoning, the only sound thing you can say is that the atoms in my brain have moved thus, causing me to reach this conclusion, and not even that has a firm basis in reality.

Watch out, though: Schopenhauer didn't view the Will to Life as a good thing, but rather as a trap for the true Self - a sort of samsara. Of course, you probably knew that, but I couldn't tell for sure in your post. The same traditions and beliefs exist in Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism (though I'm not 100% sure about the last) - and even Muhammadanism, I think, but I'll have to read more about the teachings of Muhammad.

However, not everything that we think is done out of free will is in fact; consider - as an example - why people have children, and see if, in the end, it isn't just caused by the Will to Life (or the Will to Power, which I believe the Will to Life is a part of).



Hmm...I think you misunderstood what I said. I was arguing against nihilism, not for it. I was saying that nihilists say 'There is no such thing as meaning', but they already have a sense of what meaning is, otherwise the whole idea of nihilism would fall apart. So, let's not result to personal attacks, shall we?

And I was in no way making a personal attack. I think you misunderstand what I said. I was simply responding to you.




I think......that there is a discrimination going on with Type C that males or NTs can be blunt and debate topics and that is welcomed, but that NFs are 'attacking' or slandering or whatever when I do.

There is a double standard here and I'm sick of it.


I will research what Schopenhauer meant further. But it doesn't really matter to me what he meant. I meant what I meant anyway.

 

[Aesthete]

I don't believe much CAN be proven. That is my problem. If it can't be, how can you for sure say it exists?
Things aren't always what they appear to be. How do I not know that everything I THINK I know isn't in fact, not? I question EVERYTHING. Even my own experiences & what I think I know.

I struggle with questions like this constantly.

Just because we have a definition of "meaning," does that mean it exists? I can make up a magical fairyland in a story tomorrow and call it Mootermoofeyland. If it were to become popular, everyone would know what Mootermoofeyland was, but it still wouldn't exist. Or would it?

Poor INTP; Ti-dom must be a curse.

Now, I'm not saying the things we give value to and call "good" are always so; most of the time, I find it to be useless noise. The thing is, you're questioning the particulars: "Does X carry meaning?" It might or it might not; so, what is meaning? To say that something doesn't carry meaning means that this "meaning" exists, but not in that particular.

 

[Aesthete]

And I was in no way making a personal attack. I think you misunderstand what I said. I was simply responding to you.

I think......that there is a discrimination going on with Type C that males or NTs can be blunt and debate topics and that is welcomed, but that NFs are 'attacking' or slandering or whatever when I do.

There is a double standard here and I'm sick of it.

I will research what Schopenhauer meant further. But it doesn't really matter to me what he meant. I meant what I meant anyway.

I apologize, then; I by no means meant to play on stereotypes. I had fully misunderstood your statements when you said "my perspective is skewed". Please, do forgive me.

By the way, I'm still not sure what type I am; I think I might be INFP, so maybe my Fi took your comments to be personal attacks.

 

[Standuble]

I suffer from the same issues COLORATURA experiences and am myself a nihilist. What is meaning? What is truth? My perception is hideous limited, I can only see a limited wavelength of light and cannot smell or hear like a dog. How do I feel certain in what I perceive and how do I be anything other than sceptical of others who claim to see it all? Is it all just different stages of ignorance where we do not even know whether what we are ignorant of has any meaning at all? Is there any meaning or purpose at all to anything, does "meaning" or "purpose" possess any meaning or purpose either. I do believe that what I see exists however, but only in the context it is presented; a context which I do not believe possesses any point, or value. I believe matter and energy exists and is in the flat bubble we call the universe, never being created, destroyed or escaping and existing that way until it no longer does, pointless the entire time. We could discover everything about the universe, the entire range of its laws, the sums of its particles but will we ever find objective meaning? It's really quite fascinating to think about, it has been five years since stumbling onto existentialism and nihilism and I am very comfortable with the "dark" thoughts it creates.

I do however lapse into a state of pseudo-existentialism due to personal values presented to me through my Fi. I cannot stay ignorant of them and find myself seeing them as meaningful to me, an unjustified preference over the myriad of other meaningless concepts and constructs that exist in this world. This is a meaning I cannot forsake but it is one I can understand to be limited only to myself and one which is born out of brain chemistry. A conjurer's trick in a way. I see any moral views I hold to be important only to me, to have no worth beyond the abstractions made from what I want and what the universe creates. This is how I see all morality and see myself. Just a clusterfuck gestalt of a million factors coming together, maybe like a series of brain neurons lighting up on a computer screen and being mistaken for a piece of art.

The only problem is that I (and I believe others) start seeing nihilism as the truth to things, yet how can the positions asserting there are no truths assert this as a truth?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

It just means the study or belief in nothingness. Not even black holes are nothingness. Much less this colorful and vibrant world we live in. If it were nothingness we would not conceive of anything. Because all would be void and naught. Or we would have as many negations as posations (?antonym if anyone knows it plz) which would cancel everything out.

But we do not. We have a skewing toward wanting good and wanting love. Therefore life does have meaning, whether we feel that or not.

This is why I say it is misunderstood.

It is the belief that objectivity does actually exist. It is only believing in the verifiable. Meaning is only assigned to that which can be naturally explained, not simply because humans find value in them.

 

[Aesthete]

The only problem is that I (and I believe others) start seeing nihilism as the truth to things, yet how can the positions asserting there are no truths assert this as a truth?

That sounds more like relativism than nihilism (per se).

 

[Standuble]

That sounds more like relativism than nihilism (per se).

I don't think so. Nihilism asserts there are no truths and thus everything is meaningless. Yet it asserts that itself is truth as an unfortunate side effect. It's a well known dilemma in the theory. Perhaps an issue with my wording is at fault.

 

[Aesthete]

I don't think so. Nihilism asserts there are no truths and thus everything is meaningless. Yet it asserts that itself is truth as an unfortunate side effect. It's a well known dilemma in the theory. Perhaps an issue with my wording is at fault.

Hmm...there seems to be more types of nihilism. It seems that some go along the lines of what you say, and others belong to what I was thinking of - namely, objects exist, but they have no intrinsic value.

Ok, fine, I give you the victory; however, you must admit that it did sound a bit like relativism.

 

[Aesthete]

I see it this way; the system looks wonderful and made for us because we're parts of the system. What's "Good" is what we expect, what works for us, what's "Bad" is what doesn't. (Yeah, moral nihilism). But we're not just, as individuals, products of millions of years of evolution--we've also evolved within this society. You, as an individual are not made to rape/pillage/murder, and I don't mean made-by-god. You were born w/ all these mirror neurons that bind you to those around you, your evolutionary function is to be a part of society as much as a lion's is to be part of a pride and eat buffalo. You were born as an INTP as much as a worker bee was born to forage. Worker bee ain't gonna rape the queen and you simply aren't built to be a psychopath, even if you are "losing your religion."
Ultimately embracing that 'existance' is all just flow of cause and effect without thunderous judgement coming down from on high, or magical energies connecting us to the inevitable Astral Paradise on Alpha Centauri, means you can just resume what you were doing w/o all the bullshit.

Then, my friend, what does how we were programmed matter? Who cares if nature has made us be in a certain way? It's not like what nature does to us really means anything. If I feel like killing somebody, I might as well do it - it won't matter in the end.

 

[C.J.Woolf]

If you have a nihilism problem, then existentialism might help. Life may have no inherent meaning, but we can choose to give it meaning.

 

[sprinkles]

Experiments may or may not be done correctly, but the important difference is that they are done at all.