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Thread: Nihilism

  1. #51
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I've noticed lots of Ego types (4s, 5s and 9s) tend to have a dazed, indecisive sense about them, like they are still trying to choose which side to pick and don't get have the confidence to stand behind a particularly side.
    Like... impartiality?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    There's an interesting little quote I am posting below that your statement reminds me of:
    "Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." Carl Jung
    True reality and true meaning are going to be discovered within the amazing reality of our mind's world.
    Love it :')
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I've noticed lots of Ego types (4s, 5s and 9s) tend to have a dazed, indecisive sense about them, like they are still trying to choose which side to pick and don't get have the confidence to stand behind a particularly side.
    Are you referring to young ones? When I discovered nihilism I was very confident and comfortable with it, like the final piece was clicking into place in a jigsaw puzzle I had been solving for years. Are you sure this is an enneagram issue and not just a case of Ne uncertainty, always wishing to leave the door open for a re-evaluation upon receiving new evidence?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    If nothing matters, then humans would not be wired to love nor appreciate good.

    The fact that we do, means that we are not, in our essence, dual creatures, even if we live in a dualistic, or trialistic, environ.

    Our 'heart' (soul) leans toward something Good and Pure, even if part of our being--our earthly bodies and minds--is at home in our world, the part of us that isn't makes all the difference, skewing us toward something asymmetrical and otherworldly. We are unique in this as far as we know.

    Therefore Nihilism is a fallacious notion, because humans always strive to betterment, or would if they could.
    This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

    What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

    As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

    I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

    I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A_priori View Post
    This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

    What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

    As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

    I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

    I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.
    Well, I agree that this is all true, but that doesn't necessarily lead to nihilism - just to a pessimistic outlook (which I agree with) or with Nietzschean optimism.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_priori View Post
    This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

    What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

    As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

    I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

    I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.
    I agree with you that survival trumps love, and that if most people, given the ability to live for love, or just to live, they will choose just to live, to survive.

    But that doesn't mean that living is a zero-sum game, which is what nihilists would argue--that nothing is what it's all about.

    It is about something. If it weren't about something, then we would not care how we lived while we were living. The fact (i.e. this is objective) that humans for the most part crave love and crave good feelings shows that things actually do matter. If things didn't matter, then their would be as much value in being bad as being good. And there isn't. We are skewed to goodness and love no matter how you slice it.

    Some people have become bad, yes, and might desire bad. But those are people who have had bad done to them, so they are not a reliable example of nihilism, just an example of how humanism can go terribly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    Well, I agree that this is all true, but that doesn't necessarily lead to nihilism - just to a pessimistic outlook (which I agree with) or with Nietzschean optimism.
    Good point. If it leads to a pessimistic outlook, as his post does, then that implies badness, because that individual is saying they expect something bad to happen or to come out of events. Since badness is counter to goodness, and goodness is the basic driver for most humans, then being pessimistic is not nihilistic, it's just the opposite of optimistic. Nihilism is more apathy.

    Pessimism is to positive sum living as hate is to love; it's the same thing, basically.

    Apathy is the opposite of positive sum living, just as apathy is opposite to love.

    To prove his point, he needs to not care at all. And everyone needs to not care for nihilism to be a legitimate worldview. Once you care, or are pessimistic, you are showing that goodness has meaning and value.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Good point. If it leads to a pessimistic outlook, as his post does, then that implies badness, because that individual is saying they expect something bad to happen or to come out of events. Since badness is counter to goodness, and goodness is the basic driver for most humans, then being pessimistic is not nihilistic, it's just the opposite of optimistic. Nihilism is more apathy.

    Pessimism is to positive sum living as hate is to love; it's the same thing, basically.

    Apathy is the opposite of positive sum living, just as apathy is opposite to love.

    To prove his point, he needs to not care at all. And everyone needs to not care for nihilism to be a legitimate worldview. Once you care, or are pessimistic, you are showing that goodness has meaning and value.
    No, pessimism isn't bad: the very origin of major religions is pessimism. It doesn't mean having no hope for the future, but realizing that there are plenty of wrong things in the world and trying to do something about them. Ultimately, by seeing all the bad things in the world and understanding they exist, we grow more compassion for those who suffer from them as well. Of course, one can get so lost in pessimistic thoughts that it becomes easy to forget that something actually has to be done.

    Optimism is simply an 'everything is just fine' attitude, which can lead to ignoring the problems of the world.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    No, pessimism isn't bad: the very origin of major religions is pessimism. It doesn't mean having no hope for the future, but realizing that there are plenty of wrong things in the world and trying to do something about them. Ultimately, by seeing all the bad things in the world and understanding they exist, we grow more compassion for those who suffer from them as well. Of course, one can get so lost in pessimistic thoughts that it becomes easy to forget that something actually has to be done.

    Optimism is simply an 'everything is just fine' attitude, which can lead to ignoring the problems of the world.
    But my point is that if you can feel value, as you do when you feel pessimistic and optimistic, then that means that life gives you something to feel value about. The words optimistic, pessimistic, value, goal, all imply that we are seeking something good. Otherwise these words would not exist for us, or exist in such a way as to not imply value or care.

    We do care. And that is why nihilism doesn't work as a worldview. At least for most people.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    But my point is that if you can feel value, as you do when you feel pessimistic and optimistic, then that means that life gives you something to feel value about. The words optimistic, pessimistic, value, goal, all imply that we are seeking something good. Otherwise these words would not exist for us, or exist in such a way as to not imply value or care.

    We do care. And that is why nihilism doesn't work as a worldview. At least for most people.
    Ah, ok, I misunderstood again. You are perfectly correct in what you say.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by A_priori View Post
    This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

    What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

    As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

    I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

    I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.
    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    But my point is that if you can feel value, as you do when you feel pessimistic and optimistic, then that means that life gives you something to feel value about. The words optimistic, pessimistic, value, goal, all imply that we are seeking something good. Otherwise these words would not exist for us, or exist in such a way as to not imply value or care.

    We do care. And that is why nihilism doesn't work as a worldview. At least for most people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    Ah, ok, I misunderstood again. You are perfectly correct in what you say.
    You all have points in what you are saying, but I think you missed the biggest point. I think that "good" & "bad" are not things we can necessarily define. Good & bad changes for each person. Those are subjective values. Yes, you can say most things/people in life will lean towards "good," but that will all depend on their own perception. Just as nihilists would see reality, the same applies to those subjective values.

    It's not that I don't care about anything per se, just that I realize that there is this MUCH bigger perception that I can't even fathom. I realize I cannot fathom this, and therefore, doubt everything that I CAN fathom. It wouldn't make sense that I could know all that I think I know, while being aware of the infinite number of things that I know I could NEVER know. That is how these thoughts begin, for me anyhow. I am not thinking about humans & what we do wrong & how much we suck (even if we do), I am just taking myself & my own "knowledge" out of the equation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    You all have points in what you are saying, but I think you missed the biggest point. I think that "good" & "bad" are not things we can necessarily define. Good & bad changes for each person. Those are subjective values. Yes, you can say most things/people in life will lean towards "good," but that will all depend on their own perception. Just as nihilists would see reality, the same applies to those subjective values.

    It's not that I don't care about anything per se, just that I realize that there is this MUCH bigger perception that I can't even fathom. I realize I cannot fathom this, and therefore, doubt everything that I CAN fathom. It wouldn't make sense that I could know all that I think I know, while being aware of the infinite number of things that I know I could NEVER know. That is how these thoughts begin, for me anyhow. I am not thinking about humans & what we do wrong & how much we suck (even if we do), I am just taking myself & my own "knowledge" out of the equation.
    I was waiting for somebody to say that. I'm a bit busy right now, but I'll probably (not certainly) go into it later.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

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