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Thread: Nihilism

  1. #41
    Junior Member xennui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    You know what leads to depression and hopelessness? Identifying yourself so intensely with ideals that when your rational faculties force you to accept them as illusions you feel like you've lost an integral part of yourself and your reason to live.
    God damn, you tell 'em! My whole fucking life fell apart when I lost my ideals... which was still a step up, because they were killing me.

  2. #42
    Junior Member xennui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    If you want I can call off the entire debate as it seems you don't wish to continue.
    No no, I was just explaining why my original post was missing, 'cuz I got all chick-shit! I'm caught now


    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    Well, yes, that is correct, but I meant why should how nature made us be a guideline for our actions and way of being as what we've been made by nature, in the end, has no objective value.
    I don't think that how nature made us is a guideline for our actions, I think nature determines our actions. What you call "value" is simply what benefits the individual, the species, the group... though it's hard to say what are the 'right' values for the right time, and our species is so successful because it has units like us working to figure out the appropriate values. To survive, to grow, to spread. Why? Because growing and spreading is succesful. Not because it in itself has value, simply because the parts of nature that aren't built for that tend to get gobbled up by the ones that are. In a way maybe we're here not because of our species strengths, virtues or "values," as much as the lack of those in competitors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    But here's the problem: you're assigning value to what other people think, how they feel, to suffering, my social position, and to my troubles in general. In reality, those things don't have any objective value - if the nihilistic world view is correct - and if I overcome the subjective factors - as the truth is supposed to set me free, not just exist in an irrelevant manner and I continue my daily existence - then I'll realize it's all senseless to get worked up about those things.
    Yes. That is what is refered to as enlightenment, kesho, satori, entering the stream, the eternal tao from which 10,000 things arise and 10,000 things subside. The void. Nirvana. It's not non-existance, it's just... observing and accepting. That needs no value.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    after the crime, I start suffering due to my conscience or whatnot, I shouldn't avoid it just because of that, because, in the end, I'm only deceiving myself by suffering.
    Who said you shouldn't avoid it? You can't avoid it, it's the way you're wired and you'll feel guilty whether you want to or not. Unless you're a psychopath, and then you'd have no conciseness. I'm not saying "should" to anything, that's the whole point of why realizing the meaning of meaning sets you free. All the "shoulds" go away. And the fear, like, "but I'll lose my moral compass and murder" goes away too, because you simply see that you are what you are and that is not what you are or have ever been. Or if is what you are, you're probably not on this site having this discussion anyway. You're too busy with Murder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    That's just the way he's wired, thus there shouldn't be any problem with what he's done.
    There you go with those "shoulds" again. There's nothing "should" about it. Those things are a problem to us because they seriously disrupt lives, and the individuals, the groups; so the society reacts to that, just like if I poke an ant hive they'll come pouring out to defend themselves. If it's not in the units' nature to defend, then the unit not thrive/survive. I don't see the need for "value" in that, except that we survive only because we place value on survival.
    Therefor, society sets a subjective value, a should of "not kill in this instance" because that moral code is a successful operating mode that's been developed over millions of years. But there's nothing universal or objective about it, nor need there be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    should we consider their actions to not matter
    If it matters to you, you'll do something about it based on your proximity and ability to influence or react to the situation. If it matters to society, then soicety will impose a rule, a should, but if you're looking for a Grand Universal Meaning to why one shouldn't kill or when one should and shouldnt', and for whom, and when... no, it absolutely does not matter, it's entirely subjective to the group and the present needs. That's why Jesus can tell you to turn the other cheek as you march off to kill Nazis. It's subjective and pragmatic.

  3. #43
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xennui View Post
    No no, I was just explaining why my original post was missing, 'cuz I got all chick-shit! I'm caught now

    I don't think that how nature made us is a guideline for our actions, I think nature determines our actions. What you call "value" is simply what benefits the individual, the species, the group... though it's hard to say what are the 'right' values for the right time, and our species is so successful because it has units like us working to figure out the appropriate values. To survive, to grow, to spread. Why? Because growing and spreading is succesful. Not because it in itself has value, simply because the parts of nature that aren't built for that tend to get gobbled up by the ones that are. In a way maybe we're here not because of our species strengths, virtues or "values," as much as the lack of those in competitors.

    Yes. That is what is refered to as enlightenment, kesho, satori, entering the stream, the eternal tao from which 10,000 things arise and 10,000 things subside. The void. Nirvana. It's not non-existance, it's just... observing and accepting. That needs no value.

    Who said you shouldn't avoid it? You can't avoid it, it's the way you're wired and you'll feel guilty whether you want to or not. Unless you're a psychopath, and then you'd have no conciseness. I'm not saying "should" to anything, that's the whole point of why realizing the meaning of meaning sets you free. All the "shoulds" go away. And the fear, like, "but I'll lose my moral compass and murder" goes away too, because you simply see that you are what you are and that is not what you are or have ever been. Or if is what you are, you're probably not on this site having this discussion anyway. You're too busy with Murder.

    There you go with those "shoulds" again. There's nothing "should" about it. Those things are a problem to us because they seriously disrupt lives, and the individuals, the groups; so the society reacts to that, just like if I poke an ant hive they'll come pouring out to defend themselves. If it is not in the units' nature to defend, then the unit will thrive. I don't see the need for "value" in that, except that we survive only because we place value on survival.
    Therefor, society sets a subjective value, a should of "not kill in this instance" because that moral code is a successful operating mode that's been developed over millions of years. But there's nothing universal or objective about it, nor need there be.

    If it matters to you, you'll do something about it based on your proximity and ability to influence or react to the situation. If it matters to society, then soicety will impose a rule, a should, but if you're looking for a Grand Universal Meaning to shy one should or shouldn't kill, or when the appropriate time to kill is for whom... no, it does not matter. Not on anything close to that scale.
    Ok, very well: let's say there are no "shoulds". Let me put it another way, then: if society was dominated by psychopaths who feel no guilt over their actions - and I'm beginning to think that that might be the case - would you say that letting them go on murdering - or doing whatever they want to do - would be quite all right? (I don't meant to say that there is really anything "good" or "bad" within this argument, but what is in accordance with nature is "good".) If man is simply a murderer fighting for his own domination - and I think that is the case most of the time - why stop him? It's quite normal for him Man is not intrinsically a collaborator - except when it suits him for further domination - and anything that goes against this prospect is rubbish taught by people who believe in "shoulds" to the young.

    As well, "growing and spreading" is not so "successful": what happens if we keep growing, but have nowhere to spread any more? We bring about our own destruction; but it seems we're "made" to both bring about our success and downfall - quite paradoxically.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

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    Nihilism - That reminds me of Darth Nihilus, a very powerful Sith Lord with an insatiable hunger to devour the life force of everything!


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    Existential and moral nihilism is the shining path to self-knowledge and eventually freedom. Learning to understand what is important to you will set you free.

  6. #46
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    fuck nihilism. I don't care if it's rational or not, it makes people feel empty and unfulfilled and leads to depression and hopelessness. meaning is not a rational phenomenon and, if you don't allow it to exist, it will slip away from you. remember that knowledge is the servant of self actualization and not the other way around.
    I think it's less about meaning, rather about as humans, how can we actually think we understand reality?

    I think as a 4w5 INFP I have this issue, and it's the most berating thing.

    It's like waking up from a dream and not being convinced you've woken up to reality.
    I'm a INFP - The sociopath

    I think I'm either a 4w5, 4w3, 6w5 or 9w1. Most possibly 4w5.

    Feeling FiNe

  7. #47
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    ...Then, I think, who am I fooling?? I AM IGNORANT!! I am, after all, this little tiny speck floating through space & time. WTF could I actually know?? WTF could ANYONE actually know?? I have even argued & doubted science/scientists. I see science on the same level of religion. Maybe it is more accurate, BUT it's all still based on HUMAN DATA & experiments. Whose to say they were done correctly, and whose to say that just b/c we observe something as one way that is TRULY that way??

    I found this orgasmic website (yes, I said orgasmic) that explains everything in the most simple, logical manner. I LOVE it! However, it makes me feel like it IS true, nothing does matter.
    www.spaceandmotion.com

    Do you struggle with similar questions? Any thoughts??
    I always feel like this, it actually keeps me from being happy sometimes(like in a circumstance that should* be making me happy).

    Hahaha and yeah that's pretty much the description I use to describe myself as well I'm just a 'speck flying through space-time' . I wouldn't blame science though, especially since most sciences try to debate the link between us and reality, not just reality as we feel we perceive it.

    This is also kinda why I like neurology and psychology, it aims to make sense of 'who we are' to judge everything.

    I think true ignorance is when you're not aware of ignorance. I don't think you're ignorant, you wouldn't be asking these questions if you were.
    I'm a INFP - The sociopath

    I think I'm either a 4w5, 4w3, 6w5 or 9w1. Most possibly 4w5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    Existential and moral nihilism is the shining path to self-knowledge and eventually freedom. Learning to understand what is important to you will set you free.
    Indeed we do seem to find that the liberating light of knowledge guides our ways towards freedom, giving us the power by which we can impose our will, our will being our desires, or what's important to us, upon the world, and in this way do we truly live a life of freedom, or in essence, a life without restrictions, which could be perceived as perfection.

    Quote Originally Posted by flameskull95 View Post
    I think it's less about meaning, rather about as humans, how can we actually think we understand reality?

    I think as a 4w5 INFP I have this issue, and it's the most berating thing.

    It's like waking up from a dream and not being convinced you've woken up to reality.
    There's an interesting little quote I am posting below that your statement reminds me of:
    "Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." Carl Jung

    True reality and true meaning are going to be discovered within the amazing reality of our mind's world.

  9. #49
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameskull95 View Post
    I always feel like this, it actually keeps me from being happy sometimes(like in a circumstance that should* be making me happy).

    Hahaha and yeah that's pretty much the description I use to describe myself as well I'm just a 'speck flying through space-time' . I wouldn't blame science though, especially since most sciences try to debate the link between us and reality, not just reality as we feel we perceive it.

    This is also kinda why I like neurology and psychology, it aims to make sense of 'who we are' to judge everything.

    I think true ignorance is when you're not aware of ignorance. I don't think you're ignorant, you wouldn't be asking these questions if you were.
    Usually it doesn't depress me so much. I just hate having the constant conflict of being obsessed w/ understanding the world, and wanting to see past all that seems irrelevant, and realizing I can't. It's a frustration that is causing me (at times) to be even lazier than I am already. It is also causing me to second guess every single bit of information that I have ever encountered...even things I think I know & have put alot of thought into. Ultimately, I know I don't know shit. Ha.

    I found this badass video that is kind-of making me realize that even if it isn't real, maybe that isn't the point...idk...still thinking about it. None-the-less...it is really cool:
    http://www.break.com/index/carl-saga...ue-dot-2300622
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    http://www.spaceandmotion.com/

  10. #50
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameskull95 View Post
    I think it's less about meaning, rather about as humans, how can we actually think we understand reality?
    I think as a 4w5 INFP I have this issue, and it's the most berating thing.
    It's like waking up from a dream and not being convinced you've woken up to reality.
    I've noticed lots of Ego types (4s, 5s and 9s) tend to have a dazed, indecisive sense about them, like they are still trying to choose which side to pick and don't get have the confidence to stand behind a particularly side.
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