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  1. #31
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is irrelevant to the discussion. Scientists who practice certitude are fools.
    Maybe, but at times, fools have advanced science. In fact, fools have advanced every field. History is strewn with fools. In many ways, Aristotle was a fool by today's standards.

    But my point was that an individual or even a school of thought can have certitude while the larger community of thinkers remains open. The certitude can exist within a larger, more open system. It can provoke thought and debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Science needs to be free to evolve and adapt, otherwise it is no longer science.
    I don't think very many educated people would disagree with that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    And I find most Libertarians are not Randists or Objectivists, so such an argument is irrelevant.
    I find most Libertarians I know online and offline have been influenced by Rand. Maybe we just know different Libertarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Anarcho-capitalists on the other hand are usually advocates of her philosophy, but anyone who has ever encountered one knows they are fiercely opposed to authority, period.
    Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Politics is not a necessity, but a reality of human social interaction. As long as there are groups of people, the behaviors you suggested will continue regardless of rationality. And there are many ideals by which people could argue that the world should be like. I wish that everyone was treated equally and had the maximum amount of liberty possible, but such values are only indicative of what is important to me, and not what is actually possible in reality. Ayn Rand asserts that her values, which are values important to rationally minded people such as keeping what you earn, creativity, etc., should be the way the world is, but such thinking is impractical because not everyone shares the same values. Hence the subjective nature of values.
    I don't think I've anywhere disagreed about the subjective nature of values. I don't believe she succeeded in her goal of reuniting "is" and "ought". But I understand why she undertook the effort. Personally, nihilism bothers me as much as dogma.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I disagree. Ecology is a measure and it has taught man much about his place in the world and his responsibilities to it. There is even a strong self preservation incentive since reducing biodiversity on this planet reduces its ability to support human life.
    This would lead to an interesting tangent. There is too much to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    My intention was to keep it as rational and practical as possible, because I have found that asserting value judgments is self defeating when discussing Ayn Rand.
    Very objective of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I believe Rand quite skillfully reasoned out the perfect philosophy for her particular set of values. But as I said before, values are subjective.
    It seems very important to you to repeatedly emphasize that values are subjective. May I ask why that is? Also, may I ask if you stand for any particular set of values, yourself? And if so, how do you reason them out? If not, then are you a nihilist?

  2. #32
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    Maybe, but at times, fools have advanced science. In fact, fools have advanced every field. History is strewn with fools. In many ways, Aristotle was a fool by today's standards.

    But my point was that an individual or even a school of thought can have certitude while the larger community of thinkers remains open. The certitude can exist within a larger, more open system. It can provoke thought and debate.
    Certainly. Some good examples are the Bible and the Qur'an.

    I find most Libertarians I know online and offline have been influenced by Rand. Maybe we just know different Libertarians.
    Rand spirred the right wing libertarian movement. However, most that I have encountered give her philosophy a provisional place in their thinking.

    Cool.
    If you think acting like an adolescent is cool.

    I don't think I've anywhere disagreed about the subjective nature of values. I don't believe she succeeded in her goal of reuniting "is" and "ought". But I understand why she undertook the effort. Personally, nihilism bothers me as much as dogma.
    Certitude of any degree is my mortal enemy. And my own personal certitude has long been the target of most people I encounter. Certitude exists to be challenged.

    Very objective of you.
    When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

    It seems very important to you to repeatedly emphasize that values are subjective. May I ask why that is? Also, may I ask if you stand for any particular set of values, yourself? And if so, how do you reason them out? If not, then are you a nihilist?
    I'm far from a nihilist. I've studied all four major ontological views and I found a little truth in each of them, so I sought to create my own understanding of the world. I came to the conclusion that there are two worlds. There is the natural (objective) world and there is the human (relative) world. I outlined my reasoning back in this old thread.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...47-post25.html

    I determined that values are inherently subjective in the natural world, but objective in the human world. No human being can exist without values without eventually going insane since they are essential to the ego, but values ultimately don't exist in the natural world. In fact all concepts are ultimately perceptions of human beings, and they only exist objectively in the human world, but become rather meaningless in the natural world. That does not negate the physical existence of what those concepts are based upon, merely the distinctions by which we define them.

    The natural world and human world exist in a dualism, which if you have studied Taoism, I'm sure you are well aware of. The natural world provides the structure and the human world provides the function. Perhaps you are familiar with the old vase analogy.

    Imagine a clay vase. What defines it as a vase and not a lump of clay? It has a structure, which contains an empty space. The vase isn't defined simply by the clay that makes it up, but also, the space within the clay. It's simultaneously defined by both existence and non existence.

    Or phrased differently...

    A vase is defined by both what makes it up, the clay, and what doesn't, the space within it. If the space wasn't there, it wouldn't be a vase. Therefore it is defined by both what exists (the clay) and what doesn't exist (the space). It is simultaneously defined objectively (the clay) and relativistically (the space).
    As far as my political values, I value liberty and equality. Sadly these values are inherently in conflict in reality, and so a great deal of compromise is needed to obtain the greatest amount of each.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #33
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Maybe this should go in the... Philosophy and Spirituality... forum.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  4. #34
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Hmmm, very interesting thoughts on values, Kiddo. If you started a thread in the philosophy section, I'd like to discuss this subject further.

  5. #35
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    Heh, in a story I'm writing, I kind of let the phrase "Ayn Rand is a sick fuck" out of one of the main character's mouths on more than one occasion.

    Seriously, I wish she could of been a bit more compassionate and understanding of viewpoints other than her own. I did immensely enjoy the fountainhead and anthem (never went into Atlas Shrugged - too scared, lol). Anthem was great to read alongside 1984 and Brave New World.

  6. #36
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Ayn Rand's oeuvre overturned her thesis.

    Good libertarians note which precipice she fell off, and tread no further.

  7. #37
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Ayn Rand's oeuvre overturned her thesis.

    Good libertarians note which precipice she fell off, and tread no further.
    Rand really contributed little to my political and intellectual formation as a young person. Read her stuff after the fact, and never got into Objectivism. However, I do like Romantic Realism and Man as Hero concepts. But making up lists of "appropriate" films and music and books as she did with her circle of admirers, and declaring heretics to be "anti-life" is just so foreign to what libertarianism means to me, I couldn't stand to live like that.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #38
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    But making up lists of "appropriate" films and music and books as she did with her circle of admirers, and declaring heretics to be "anti-life" is just so foreign to what libertarianism means to me, I couldn't stand to live like that.
    Yes. Rand decried tyranny but ended up inventing her own brand of authoritarianism. Read Whittaker Chambers' review of Atlas Shrugged when you have the time.

  9. #39
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    I never heard of Ayn Rand until I started posting years ago. I scanned some of her work a few years ago...... gotta be an intuitive thing.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Bear Warp's Avatar
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    When I was reading "The Fountainhead", I kept picturing Howard Roark as looking like Rick Astley. I'm aware that this post has no real value, and has little or nothing to do with Ayn Rand and/or her philosophy, but I felt I had to say it.

    And away I go...

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