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  1. #11
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    An INTJ boss already knows what you have done and you work attitude. You should not need to ask him for a raise, and when it’s time for you to move on he should have a letter for you even if you have not asked for it (it’s your job to do your job without constant supervision and his to not have to be asked to give you proper support without constant requests from you (it’s his job)).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    I don't think it's quite correct to have contempt for the idea, "I did this for you and now I deserve this." This is the actual basis of the labor system in the economy. I find Fe quite realistic in that sense.
    ...
    Why are you telling me this? It's most INTJs who think like this.
    I'm trying to help you by giving you a perspective you prolly find too alien to fanthom yourself. It's pretty rude to argue like this with me instead of understanding the concepts. Not to mention close-minded.

    And no, from the POV of most NTJs the basis for the labor system is POWER. To them it's about who has more of it in a situation and can impose their will on others and make them (in whatever way) do what they want. There are no emotional attachments as with Fe.
    Ask Romney and his 47%. This is how NTJs view most of us.

  3. #13
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    I don't think it's quite correct to have contempt for the idea, "I did this for you and now I deserve this." This is the actual basis of the labor system in the economy. I find Fe quite realistic in that sense.
    That's because you're an Fe user. Most Fi users find such a statement presumptuous. Facts will speak for themselves. Your best case with an INTJ is to e-mail to schedule a meeting, lay out a strong case as @Coriolis outlined above, and simply ask directly. You'll receive a direct answer (potentially after a brief mulling-over) in most cases.

    Just do your best to be factual. You can certainly say though that you are a dedicated and hard worker - it's ok to point out an obvious truth like this.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  4. #14

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    Ok. I guess there's no way to really get around it but bite the bullet and ask.

    I am imagining something like this.

    NFJ: Hi, NTJ. I have a question for you. Is there any chance I can get a raise sometime in the upcoming months?

    NTJ: ....

    NFJ: Sorry for bothering you.

    10 hours later

    NTJ: Ok (leaves)

    NFJ: Wait!--

    or

    NTJ: No your job is tied to a contract and labor laws thus you can not have a raise.

    NFJ: Ok.

    It probably won't be any more dramatic than either of those. I'm rather looking forward it to it now.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    ...
    It's pretty rude to argue like this with me instead of understanding the concepts. Not to mention close-minded.
    Ooh! I didn't mean to make you feel like this.
    I don't want to derail the thread. Maybe we could talk about this over PM.

  6. #16
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    Ok. I guess there's no way to really get around it but bite the bullet and ask.

    I am imagining something like this.

    NFJ: Hi, NTJ. I have a question for you. Is there any chance I can get a raise sometime in the upcoming months?
    To be honest, if you phrase it like this, it just seems way too passive on a number of levels. The 'is there any chance', the 'sometime'....

    I think that @Coriolis had some great suggestions. I think that doing some research, having reasons A, B, and C for why you think a raise is justified and fair,etc, would be more effective and would also let your boss know that you've done your homework - give him something objective to be able to base things off of. In the end, it is a business, he's your boss, you're an employee, and I think that you shouldn't feel the need to be 'nice' about it by phrasing the question in the way you give in your example. Rather than 'Is there any chance...', be more declarative, and state, 'I've been doing some research, and would like to discuss with you my current salary'. etc. Something more direct along those lines would be my suggestion, so that he doesn't have much choice but to listen to what you have researched. The way you phrased it puts everything in his court, and you lose control of the situation right from the get-go, imo.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #17
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;1974738
    Do your homework, and prepare your case. Do you know what the average first-year salary is for people doing your kind of work in your geographic area? Professional societies often keep these kinds of data. I negotiated a 50% raise once based primarily on this info; I had accepted a lowball starting offer for some specific reasons, and needed to bring it up after my first year. Then make a list comparing what you were hired to do (what you did in your first 4-6 weeks) with what you do now. The first question establishes a baseline, the second shows how much more productive you have become. Your case for getting a raise then will rest on a combination of correcting your baseline (if your starting salary was lower than average), and increasing your compensation for increased work.

    Whatever you do, if your request is denied, don't take it personally. As someone suggested, ask what the protocols are in your lab for raises/promotions, so you can make your case again sometime in a more appropriate manner/time.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by ;1974788
    As the last two posters said.
    Remember:

    Te is about TANGIBLE results and work. Even if the results suck it's still better than thinking in your head and not have observable results. Your Ti perfection doesn't mean anything to him. SHOW tangible results that can be measured and touched and seen. Make a list in writing if you are afraid you won't pull it off in a convo - this is what I would do.


    Keep it factual. Leave the emotions for your friends. Your INTJ boss is NOT your friend.

    Don't take it personal. He might think you deserve it but the moment might not be right. Or there is no money. Or he thinks he can get away with not paying you and you won't leave (most common scenario). For him this is nothing personal - just business. Why pay you when he doesn't have to. Do NOT take it personal.
    This.
    Keep your stated desire active and try next month. And again. And again. Pummel through.

    There is no Fe relationship with a TJ you can destroy. Don't assume they'll care about you just because you can sense their Fi.

    Pummel through.
    This is where you can make a choice. Continue pummeling consecutively in case of failure or plan to walk away. If you're thinking of a raise, that means a perception of value increase, for which it would be logical to not want to settle for less.

    Naturally, you can factor in a tolerance, say a couple of months that you will stay and try again, while saving money/seeking a new place where said value will be acknowledged. I will in fact suggest you set forth this alternative planning way before you even prepare and deliver your raise request, if possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by ;1975012
    That's because you're an Fe user. Most Fi users find such a statement presumptuous. Facts will speak for themselves. Your best case with an INTJ is to e-mail to schedule a meeting, lay out a strong case as @Coriolis outlined above, and simply ask directly. You'll receive a direct answer (potentially after a brief mulling-over) in most cases.

    Just do your best to be factual. You can certainly say though that you are a dedicated and hard worker - it's ok to point out an obvious truth like this.
    Also this.

    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    Ok. I guess there's no way to really get around it but bite the bullet and ask.

    I am imagining something like this.

    NFJ: Hi, NTJ. I have a question for you. Is there any chance I can get a raise sometime in the upcoming months?

    NTJ: ....

    NFJ: Sorry for bothering you.

    10 hours later

    NTJ: Ok (leaves)

    NFJ: Wait!--

    or

    NTJ: No your job is tied to a contract and labor laws thus you can not have a raise.

    NFJ: Ok.

    It probably won't be any more dramatic than either of those. I'm rather looking forward it to it now.
    Not this x1 million.


    Quote Originally Posted by ;1975047
    To be honest, if you phrase it like this, it just seems way too passive on a number of levels. The 'is there any chance', the 'sometime'....

    I think that @ had some great suggestions. I think that doing some research, having reasons A, B, and C for why you think a raise is justified and fair,etc, would be more effective and would also let your boss know that you've done your homework - give him something objective to be able to base things off of. In the end, it is a business, he's your boss, you're an employee, and I think that you shouldn't feel the need to be 'nice' about it by phrasing the question in the way you give in your example. Rather than 'Is there any chance...', be more declarative, and state, 'I've been doing some research, and would like to discuss with you my current salary'. etc. Something more direct along those lines would be my suggestion, so that he doesn't have much choice but to listen to what you have researched. The way you phrased it puts everything in his court, and you lose control of the situation right from the get-go, imo.
    Also this.
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    ~ Elbert Hubbard

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  8. #18
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    And no, from the POV of most NTJs the basis for the labor system is POWER. To them it's about who has more of it in a situation and can impose their will on others and make them (in whatever way) do what they want. There are no emotional attachments as with Fe.
    Ask Romney and his 47%. This is how NTJs view most of us.
    No, this is more ENTJ, or even ESTJ. They want to control people; INTJs want to control systems and outcomes. We are not Fe-based, but recognize that a motivated employee is a productive employee, and more useful to us in accomplishing our plans. We realize that it is rarely in our advantage to screw people over, and try to get a win-win situation whenever possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    I don't think it's quite correct to have contempt for the idea, "I did this for you and now I deserve this." This is the actual basis of the labor system in the economy. I find Fe quite realistic in that sense.
    There is truth in this, but the way you phrase it obscures that. You don't do your work for the boss, but for the organization. You don't so much deserve your pay, but rather earn it. (Yes, subtle semantic distinctions.) To succeed in asking for a raise, you must show how your objective productivity is worth more than you are currently paid. Have you completed more tests? Written more or better reports? Trained new employees? Taken over additional duties like purchasing supplies or troubleshooting computers? Resolved any specific problems or issues in the lab? Yes, emphasizing that you are a nice person and even a team player won't carry much weight, but even an INTJ will appreciate someone who tries to get along, and pitches in when something needs to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    There is no Fe relationship with a TJ you can destroy. Don't assume they'll care about you just because you can sense their Fi.


    Also, is this true? Part of the reason I'm asking this on typology central is that I find a lot of camaraderie in the day to day work with my boss, and we've had good times so far. I enjoy just our random chats. I would feel rather disappointed to find that ultimately my contribution doesn't matter, or matters less because I'm perceived as a "Fe"-type, or emotional, or a pushover.
    The italicised is mostly true, since INTJs do not operate on Fe. Your end of a relationship may rely on Fe, but ours will rely on Fi (and Ni/Te, of course). This means it will not have much observable external component. You can be certain, though, that the INTJ has made definitive internal value judgments about you. If these are favorable, he can be a good advocate and even mentor, as long as you continue to measure up. Expect him to be demanding, but essentially fair. As others have pointed out, there may be many reasons why he can't give you a raise that have nothing to do with you.

    As for how to go about asking, if your work environment is relatively informal and you and the boss have a good working relationship, just pick a time when he isn't obviously in the middle of something, and ask if you could have a few minutes of his time. Cascadeco's suggestion here is good. Tell him you want to discuss your current salary in view of your increased productivity, skills, and contributions. Have an ideal salary in mind, and mention any salary research you have done, to show that it is not unreasonable. Makek sure your remarks are organized, accurate, objective, and brief. If he denies your request, ask at what point you might bring it up again in future (perhaps at your 1-year point?). If you sense he is somehow dissatisfied with your work, arrange to get an informal performance appraisal at a later date. In any case, this is not the time to ask about grad school letters. You can do that when you actually apply to school. Keep this discussion focused on your current work in his lab.

    Good Luck!
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No, this is more ENTJ, or even ESTJ. They want to control people; INTJs want to control systems and outcomes. We are not Fe-based, but recognize that a motivated employee is a productive employee, and more useful to us in accomplishing our plans. We realize that it is rarely in our advantage to screw people over, and try to get a win-win situation whenever possible.
    Oh, ofc! Never said INTJs want to control ppl.

    INTJs want their vision realized and people (not immediate family and close friends) are a means to that end. Fe people usually have a problem comprehending this utilitarian view of employees. Many Fe people try to impose that Fe equation of "I did this and now I deserve/you owe me that.".

    Like here the OP talked about the sacrifices he made with vacation days, etc. and that's BS to the INTJs I know. I tried to make this clear to him cause he prolly can't grasp it with his limited knowledge of type.

    Again - I don't think INTJs enjoy controlling ppl like ENTJs do. Many simply have no choice and grudgingly do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lostlanguage View Post
    Maybe we could talk about this over PM.
    I think you now have all the info. You need to overcome yourself and accept a different outlook on human relationships (Te-Fi) as valid.

    If that scares you too much to try, then you wasted our time and that's very inconsiderate of you. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions.

    With the INTJs I know, if their Fi is happy, they like directness - "I want a raise. This is a laundry list of the measurable contributions I've made (Te). This is a strategic vision of how I'll contribute and how my planned competence development will increase my contributions (Ni). I like this job and I like you as a boss (Fi). The industry standard is xxx (Te). Let's work something out here (a Te call for specific action)?"
    The last might be him introverting for a while and that's fine with dom Ni and tert Fi.

    If the Fi is not happy - it might not end well unless your INTJ has a grasp on it. In his age group he prolly has it.

    Good luck. POST the results.

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    INTJs want their vision realized and people (not immediate family and close friends) are a means to that end. Fe people usually have a problem comprehending this utilitarian view of employees. Many Fe people try to impose that Fe equation of "I did this and now I deserve/you owe me that.".

    Like here the OP talked about the sacrifices he made with vacation days, etc. and that's BS to the INTJs I know. I tried to make this clear to him cause he prolly can't grasp it with his limited knowledge of type.

    Again - I don't think INTJs enjoy controlling ppl like ENTJs do. Many simply have no choice and grudgingly do it.
    Yes, we take care of our tools. The highlighted doesn't carry much weight for the most part, but an INTJ will notice who makes sacrifices like this to ensure things get done; and who leaves at 5:00 and puts his own schedule/time off ahead of even the most important of projects. In fact, if it takes weekends, vacations, and working late to get things done as a rule, an INTJ boss will probably adjust the system to improve efficiency, unless it is a short-time surge or emergency.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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