User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 51

  1. #1
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    IT
    Posts
    147

    Default INTJ: a stickler for grammar. Why?

    Title says it all.

    Why does the typical INTJ tend to be such a prick when it comes to grammar.. why do they hold it in such regard?

    If you are the typical INTJ, or are an INTJ and a stickler for grammar, then some insight would be very helpful to me.

    At this point in time, I think this is just a stupid/annoying pet-peeve that doesn't serve a single purpose, because in most cases when I see an INTJ correct someone's grammar that person had already (effectively) made their point. Also, I'll note that the typical INTJ that also happens to be a prick when it comes to grammar doesn't communicate very well. There word choice, punctuation, and grammar may be solid, but I've tended to notice that the meaning/purpose/point is missing.

    Any insight into any reasoning (are there any) behind this hard on for grammar would be very much appreciated, as I'd prefer not to think of these people as idiots.

  2. #2
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Not really the typical INTJ, but I might be able to offer some insight:

    For many INTJs, there exists an urgency to exude an imprimatur of professionalism (whether real or imagined).

    If he can successfully attack your grammar, his mind creates the premise that the underlying logic of your argument is also flawed.

    Obviously, strange grammar doesn't necessarily mean strange thinking. It's my experience that heightened awareness of grammatical mistakes suggests an inability to conceptualize beyond the immediate.

  3. #3

    Default

    I'm an INTJ who is a stickler for spelling and (to a lesser degree) grammar.

    In an adversarial situation, Night is correct. The care or lack thereof taken to use proper spelling and grammar is often used to devalue the content of the communication. I find this to be a perfectly legitimate argument.

    But in a larger sense, I think that people don't realize that the manner of your communication adds meaning to the content of your communication. They say, "Why does it matter to you? I got my point across?" Yes, you did. Unwittingly and to your detriment. In addition to whatever you were trying to say, you got across the point that you're careless, imprecise and perhaps sloppy. Language has specific meaning, and the more you take liberties with the construction of language, the more white noise you add to your communication.

    It's not that one particular spelling of a word or usage of punctuation is inherently "right" so much as it is that that particular spelling is what's been agreed upon as right. It's like the Nielsen TV ratings. Their accuracy has been questioned at times, yet all the networks have agreed to use the ratings as the basis for advertising rates. Once everyone has agreed that something arbitrary is right, it's as right as it needs to be for their purposes.

    In the end, I guess I care so much about it because the language you use does more than convey a message. It says something about you. And it's of no use to say that this isn't fair, because it's true and it operates at a subconscious level as much as a conscious one. Two people can say the exact same thing, and the person who misspells and butchers their usage just isn't going to be taken as seriously.

    Dear GOD I hope I didn't make any mistakes!
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  4. #4
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post

    But in a larger sense, I think that people don't realize that the manner of your communication adds meaning to the content of your communication. They say, "Why does it matter to you? I got my point across?" Yes, you did. Unwittingly and to your detriment. In addition to whatever you were trying to say, you got across the point that you're careless, imprecise and perhaps sloppy. Language has specific meaning, and the more you take liberties with the construction of language, the more white noise you add to your communication.
    This is very well said.

  5. #5
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    6,707

    Default

    Why is the typical INTJ a stickler for grammar?

    Because grammar is a matter of life and death, of course! Most types do not realize this and go on their merry way, but INTJs understand the sometimes fatal power of improper grammar.

    Listen to these two commands:

    1. "Let's eat, grandpa!"

    2. "Let's eat grandpa!"

    The first is the correction of the second, but by the time I got there, it was too late... *sniff* Poor man...



    I don't know about other INTJs, but for me, the reasons are twofold:

    1) Improper grammar creates this dissonant brain noise. I may not be an absolute stickler for grammar -- I won't put in 'whom's and I won't force you to keep prepositions off the end of sentences -- but I find when something doesn't sound right, it's usually because the grammar is very obviously wrong. INTJs mainly function on the gist of things backed up by evidence; the gist has been tested by experience enough to be trusted. Because of this, too much bad grammar is like fingernails to a chalkboard.

    2) Bad grammar makes stuff that much more difficult to understand. I'm already confused enough by what people are telling me as it is, and misplacing commas isn't helping! As shown above, the placement of a little line in a sentence can completely change its meaning. If the emphasis is shifted to a place that doesn't make any sense, the sentence must be wrong, but if that's the case, what was it trying to say instead? I'll go ahead and try to make sense of it, but it's so annoying because the person who wrote the damn thing should have gotten it right in the first place, and because they haven't expressed themselves properly, my answer is probably going to be way off.

    Then again, this is me after my experience of reading lots of amateur teenage writing. Maybe if I hadn't been forced to decode so much bad grammar and try to correct it, I wouldn't be such a stickler for it.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #6
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    IT
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I'm an INTJ who is a stickler for spelling and (to a lesser degree) grammar.

    In an adversarial situation, Night is correct. The care or lack thereof taken to use proper spelling and grammar is often used to devalue the content of the communication. I find this to be a perfectly legitimate argument.

    But in a larger sense, I think that people don't realize that the manner of your communication adds meaning to the content of your communication. They say, "Why does it matter to you? I got my point across?" Yes, you did. Unwittingly and to your detriment. In addition to whatever you were trying to say, you got across the point that you're careless, imprecise and perhaps sloppy. Language has specific meaning, and the more you take liberties with the construction of language, the more white noise you add to your communication.

    It's not that one particular spelling of a word or usage of punctuation is inherently "right" so much as it is that that particular spelling is what's been agreed upon as right. It's like the Nielsen TV ratings. Their accuracy has been questioned at times, yet all the networks have agreed to use the ratings as the basis for advertising rates. Once everyone has agreed that something arbitrary is right, it's as right as it needs to be for their purposes.

    In the end, I guess I care so much about it because the language you use does more than convey a message. It says something about you. And it's of no use to say that this isn't fair, because it's true and it operates at a subconscious level as much as a conscious one. Two people can say the exact same thing, and the person who misspells and butchers their usage just isn't going to be taken as seriously.

    Dear GOD I hope I didn't make any mistakes!
    Interesting.

    But as for "at your detriment," getting caught up in the spelling/grammar of a message and bothering to miss its point/findings, to me, seems to leave you with an accurate spotting of less-than-perfect grammar, but at your detriment.

    I think I understand what you are saying, but one specific thing that I think was missed: why does the typical INTJ that is also a stickler for grammar hold it in just about the highest regard? Specifically, do they not realize that there are levels/priorities, and that in many cases spelling/grammar may not be very high on this list? For example, using less-than-perfect grammar/spelling as a reason to disarm the power of a message seems to be a fatal and foolish mistake.

    I look forward to another interesting response.

    As a side note, I think my grammar/spelling is good enough. I started this thread because I'm trying to come to terms with that (for now) idiot who devoided himself of the content/power/significance of my message by questioning my usage of "be," and by getting stuck on my failure to capitalize the "s" in Saturday.

  7. #7
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mysavior View Post
    Interesting.


    I think I understand what you are saying, but one specific thing that I think was missed: why does the typical INTJ that is also a stickler for grammar hold it in just about the highest regard? Specifically, do they not realize that there are levels/priorities, and that in many cases spelling/grammar may not be very high on this list? For example, using less-than-perfect grammar/spelling as a reason to disarm the power of a message seems to be a fatal and foolish mistake.

    As a side note, I think my grammar/spelling is good enough. I started this thread because I'm trying to come to terms with that (for now) idiot who devoided himself of the content/power/significance of my message by questioning my usage of "be," and by getting stuck on my failure to not capitalize "Saturday."
    It sounds like you've extracurricular motivation that (very likely) goes beyond the context of FM's response. You seem to highlight the specific peccadilloes of a single person (who appears to have truly pissed you off) as commonplace behaviors in the INTJ.

    Very likely the person you were dealing with (if they sincerely ignored the legitimacy of your argument in favor of mechanical corrections) is likely more an xSTJ than INTJ.

    That, or their behavior could also have been intentionally paid to you as an incendiary device aimed at taking you off of your game.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mysavior View Post
    Interesting.

    But as for "at your detriment," getting caught up in the spelling/grammar of a message and bothering to miss its point/findings, to me, seems to leave you with an accurate spotting of less-than-perfect grammar, but at your detriment.
    But I'm arguing that it is the bad grammar that is actually causing me to miss the point/findings. I'm not grading people like English homework and ignoring what they're saying. I can pay attention to both without sacrificing either.

    I think I understand what you are saying, but one specific thing that I think was missed: why does the typical INTJ that is also a stickler for grammar hold it in just about the highest regard? Specifically, do they not realize that there are levels/priorities, and that in many cases spelling/grammar may not be very high on this list? For example, using less-than-perfect grammar/spelling as a reason to disarm the power of a message seems to be a fatal and foolish mistake.
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. As I alluded to above, care and attention aren't zero-sum games. Why isn't it reasonable to expect a well-made point that also includes good spelling and grammar? I don't see it as a balance of priorities because effort is not a scant quality that needs to be rationed.

    I still think using bad grammar to discredit a message has legitimacy. If the person was careless in disseminating their message, why isn't it reasonable to assume they were careless in formulating it? Obviously, not every message delivered with bad grammar is going to be worthless, but I think that making the link is reasonable.

    On the flip side, I agree with you that there is definitely a standard of "good enough". I mean, I make mistakes too. I think the majority of people display "good enough" skills in this area.

    I'm starting to wonder if an opinion on this topic is tied to whether you view English writing skills as a talent or as the result of effort. If you see it as a talent, I can understand holding a viewpoint that one shouldn't be overly raked over the coals for bad grammar. I happen to see it as the result of effort, though. Some people definitely have more of a knack than others, but the dictionary is within everyone's reach. I liken it to fact-checking. If your facts are wrong, most of the time it's because you didn't put enough effort into vetting them.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  9. #9
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    IT
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Alright, that's fair. That encounter today did piss me off. However, what gave power to the encounter and made me get off my ass and post this message was the fact that when I looked back at my life, a great deal of those that were sticklers for grammar/spelling (both to me and to others) were INTJ. IxTJ would also do.

    So now I'm wondering why. The responses thus far have given me a great deal of insight into the "why."

  10. #10
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    979

    Default

    I'm not INTJ, but I thought FMW and Hap made some excellent points.

    I'm surprised to hear an INTP say he doesn't understand this issue, because my reading indicates that mastery and precision of language are very important to INTPs. I've known many who are sticklers for proper usage and grammar; the same goes for many other NTs.

    Grammar and spelling errors jump out at me (NB: I almost never point them out to those who make them). Of course I get the gist of what's said in spite of the errors, but a misspelled, poorly stated article or editorial isn't as compelling to me as a well-phrased, properly spelled one.

    Someone who thinks the idea is more important than the way it's phrased or spelled might be correct. But if two papers make the same points, and one is spelled correctly and phrased grammatically while the other isn't, can you see how it might be easier to put the second one aside in favor of the former?
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] INTJ's, conquering the world, why?
    By Vilku in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 02-15-2013, 01:31 PM
  2. USA: Woman, 61, arrested for asking ‘why'
    By heart in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 03-04-2010, 12:32 AM
  3. [INTJ] INTJ or run for the hills....
    By tinkerbell in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 02-09-2010, 04:30 PM
  4. [ISTJ] ISTJs- How Many of you are sticklers for schedules?
    By IZthe411 in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 07-31-2009, 12:32 AM
  5. [INTJ] Hey Again Fellow INTJs ..... Another Question For You about Emotions!!!!!
    By WithoutaFace in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 02-14-2009, 06:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO