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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    ...what?

    You think Ps are too vague to verbally express their intellect?
    That's quite a broad statement, Night. I wouldn't deign to make such a statement.

    I meant that they do not have the same natural inclination to learn the subtle nuances and mechanics of language that J's do, but they can develop it if it's needed of them (and probably will to some degree in school). Instead, they tend to focus more on understanding reality itself, in a way that isn't linked to langauge. This makes them considerably more intelligent in a non-verbal way, but the price of that is that they're less likely to acquire the skills needed to express this understanding, unless they manage to find the motivation to do so.

    So, INTP's (like other P's) can be skilled with language if they work at it, but they aren't naturally inclined to be skilled with language as most J's are.

    It's roughly the same idea as J's being left-brained, and P's being right-brained.

  2. #22
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's quite a broad statement, Night. I wouldn't deign to make such a statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I really don't see INTP's (or any P's, honestly) having this capacity naturally. Skill with language in a verbal, linear sense seems to be the domain of J's. P's tend to be more skilled at exploring and understanding reality itself rather than langauge or communication.

    They seem quite capable of developing this sense (and some do have it), but it doesn't seem like something they're inclined to learn unless it's needed of them. Many of them are quite vague (and although they're likely still intelligent on some level, they can't easily express any of it verbally).
    You say potato...


    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I meant that they do not have the same natural inclination to learn the subtle nuances and mechanics of language that J's do, but they can develop it if it's needed of them (and probably will to some degree in school). Instead, they tend to focus more on understanding reality itself, in a way that isn't linked to langauge. This makes them considerably more intelligent in a non-verbal way, but the price of that is that they're less likely to acquire the skills needed to express this understanding, unless they manage to find the motivation to do so.

    So, INTP's (like other P's) can be skilled with language if they work at it, but they aren't naturally inclined to be skilled with language as most J's are.

    It's roughly the same idea as J's being left-brained, and P's being right-brained.
    This sounds highly anecdotal.

    Do you have empirical framework for any of this?

  3. #23
    Junior Member verna's Avatar
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    I highly agree with most of the above points, particularly in regard to the following:

    - INTJs can use grammar to discount an argument.
    - Poor grammar creates mental white noise for us, making it difficult to pull meaning from the garbled message.

    I would like to add my point of view as to why we feel the need to point out grammar and spelling mistakes to others.

    I'm a very typical INTJ technical writer. I don't always feel social enough to point out mistakes, but when I do, it is for these reasons only: to improve the person's future use of the language and, possibly, influence a general change toward better grammar in the world around me. Poor grammar truly is like nails on a chalkboard for me. I know everyone makes mistakes (I do so often), but I feel like habitual things (forms of lay or homophones for there) can be fixed by simply pointing out to the person that they are, indeed, making a mistake. I don't choose humanitarian causes (I'm hardly altruistic in the traditional ways), but I choose to help others to self-improvement in this way. Besides, they may go on to have children and, having learned the error of their ways, may pass on proper grammar to their offspring, as well. It also helps me by (hopefully) snuffing out the poor grammar around me one encounter at a time (of course, it's a constant battle to maintain balance).

    I would also like to say that poor grammar gives me the impression that the author (or occassionally, the speaker) is younger and more immature than they actually are. Subconsciously, this causes me to question their intelligence. In recent years, I've tried to curb this a bit, and I apologize now for the way many will hear arrogance in that comment. It just casts the author/speaker in a negative light, and they are putting themselves at a clear disadvantage from the start.

    Finally, correcting grammar is like putting the universe back into order. I'm not sure about other INTJs, but that's very appealing (ordering, filing, organizing).

    My biggest annoyance is that it only takes a moment to read over something before declaring it complete. It gives me the impression that the author is lazy, careless, and so are their points.

    ((I do make allowances for phone/PDA users, for whom tiny screen plus tiny keyboard can equal extra mistakes and more difficulty checking it over.))

    --------------------
    **In point of fact, this last bit is why I replied to an old thread. My phone displayed "similar threads," but the dates were hidden behind user pictures. Seeing them now on a "real" computer, I'm somewhat embarrassed. >.< Sorry.
    Last edited by verna; 02-24-2010 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Ineptitude.
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    INTJ -- I: 67%, N: 88%, T: 100%, J: 67%

  4. #24

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    I am an ENTP and I am very big on effective communication- good grammar and choice of words are absolutely fundamental to making a convincing statement. Not doing so would be doing injustice to the concepts and ideas you're trying to highlight.

    To use a musician's analogy, you could be the best songwriter in the world but nobody would give a damn if your guitar's out of tune and your singing's off-key. Similarly, you could be the best cook but nobody's going to try your food if it looks unappetizing- you know what I'm getting at.

    That said, I sometimes get so excited about ideas that I plunge into them headfirst without taking the time and energy to keep my thoughts as coherent and understandable as possible- although I do try to keep this to a minimum, and I only tend to do it around close friends or people who I know would not judge me for it. If I were to present these thoughts and ideas and expect them to be taken seriously, I would take the time to refine the presentation itself. It's the least you could do; you owe it to yourself.

    I also write out my text messages with proper grammar and use short-forms as sparingly as possible. It's just a personal thing. I try not to judge others who don't, but I'm sure it still happens- albeit subconsciously. It's like choosing to be well-dressed even when it's supposedly okay to be sloppy. (Personally, I think it's never okay to dress sloppy.) How you present yourself or your ideas says a lot about how much you respect the people you're presenting yourself/your ideas to.

    PS: I also believe that it's possible to go too far- being excessively refined can come across as overly-rehearsed, impersonal, and in some cases, even condescending. People (especially friends) can get the impression that you're trying to maintain an overly-professional or argumentative relationship with them. It's important to be natural, fluid and not look like you're trying too hard.
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  5. #25
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I'm an INTJ who is a stickler for spelling and (to a lesser degree) grammar.

    In an adversarial situation, Night is correct. The care or lack thereof taken to use proper spelling and grammar is often used to devalue the content of the communication. I find this to be a perfectly legitimate argument.

    But in a larger sense, I think that people don't realize that the manner of your communication adds meaning to the content of your communication. They say, "Why does it matter to you? I got my point across?" Yes, you did. Unwittingly and to your detriment. In addition to whatever you were trying to say, you got across the point that you're careless, imprecise and perhaps sloppy. Language has specific meaning, and the more you take liberties with the construction of language, the more white noise you add to your communication.

    It's not that one particular spelling of a word or usage of punctuation is inherently "right" so much as it is that that particular spelling is what's been agreed upon as right. It's like the Nielsen TV ratings. Their accuracy has been questioned at times, yet all the networks have agreed to use the ratings as the basis for advertising rates. Once everyone has agreed that something arbitrary is right, it's as right as it needs to be for their purposes.

    In the end, I guess I care so much about it because the language you use does more than convey a message. It says something about you. And it's of no use to say that this isn't fair, because it's true and it operates at a subconscious level as much as a conscious one. Two people can say the exact same thing, and the person who misspells and butchers their usage just isn't going to be taken as seriously.

    Dear GOD I hope I didn't make any mistakes!
    At least you aren't sooo ham-fisted and dumb to say that language contains precise meaning. That would simplt unline the fact that you are one small life form, trying like hell to make yourself look so, so special, in this case, for your penchant for pefection and rightiousness.
    It's hard impossible to take you seriously for reasons you are simply unaware of.

  6. #26
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    If I view your words as important, I generally want to understand them thoroughly, from both literal and figurative view points.

    I feel as though poor grammar is a dilution of the literal, and a point of possible deviation for the figurative.

    Thus, I feel the need to clarify upon poor grammar where it is feasible.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    At least you aren't sooo ham-fisted and dumb to say that language contains precise meaning. That would simplt unline the fact that you are one small life form, trying like hell to make yourself look so, so special, in this case, for your penchant for pefection and rightiousness.
    It's hard impossible to take you seriously for reasons you are simply unaware of.
    Thank you for highlighting my points with a relevant example.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  8. #28
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Thank you for highlighting my points with a relevant example.
    No, thank yeu, asshoul. For never getting 'it'. per the usual...

  9. #29
    Pumpernickel
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    People will be able to understand what you are trying to say even if you have whole words in anagrams, that doesn't mean that you should get sloppy with your communication.

    It might be because my dominant intelligence is linguistic, or because of Ni, but I really just don't interpret/react to things in the same way if they are spelled retardedly. When what you are writing is not structured or coherent, I will often just skim through it like its background noise (and not even on purpose)

    Then again I'm an ENTJ.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    People will be able to understand what you are trying to say even if you have whole words in anagrams, that doesn't mean that you should get sloppy with your communication.

    It might be because my dominant intelligence is linguistic, or because of Ni, but I really just don't interpret/react to things in the same way if they are spelled retardedly. When what you are writing is not structured or coherent, I will often just skim through it like its background noise (and not even on purpose)

    Then again I'm an ENTJ.
    You are somehow suggesting you're a paragon of ENTJ communication while choosing to use "retardedly," in your post.
    Practice what you preach.

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