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  1. #21
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was hoping you'd contribute it to the convo (you don't even have a link?), as in all the years I studied it and have read about it, I never ran across such a thing (from a serious perspective, at least) and don't feel like looking it up right now.
    I can't really give you anything at the moment. I actually came across this while watching a history channel special on Jesus. You'd have to probably buy the DVD.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I can't really give you anything at the moment. I actually came across this while watching a history channel special on Jesus. You'd have to probably buy the DVD.
    Is this a joke?

  3. #23
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Is this a joke?
    I've had a humanities teacher present the idea that Jesus never existed as well, and gave an entire lecture on it. She even gave us a packet on it as well. I just can't remember the source.

  4. #24
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    So now we also need proof that the tales from the Bible didn't happen?

  5. #25
    Member Arkigos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Google > INTJs

    Racism -
    Matthew 15:22-26 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

    Destruction of property -
    John 2:13-16 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!”

    Ditching God -
    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

    Cursing a tree for not producing fruit in the off-season (Duh? Why not just make it bear fruit?) -
    Mark 11:12-14, 11:20 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. [...] In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.

    Perfuming himself rather than helping the poor -
    Matthew 26:6-11 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.” Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.

    Encouraging strife -
    Matthew 10:5 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.
    Matthew 10:21 Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

    Keeping salvation a secret -
    Mark 4:11-12 He told them, The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!

    Chastising people for not killing their kids -
    Mark 7:8-10 And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother, and, Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

    Killing around 2,000 of pigs for no real reason -
    Mark 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand) and were choked in the sea.

    Approving of beating people -
    Luke 12:47 The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
    Just to be an INTP dewey decimal and correct skylights' list into the things that were actually bad:

    Racism - True, this is probably the worst thing, by our sensibilities, that he did.

    Destruction of Property - It was a principled protest, sometimes asking nicely doesn't work out. Saying this was bad is really stretching it.

    Ditching God - Huh? I think you have that backwards. Also, how is this even remotely bad? God left him and he was sad.

    Perfuming himself - This isn't bad, but it can be seen as hypocrisy. It's presented as him teaching a lesson and kinda has a Buddhist Golden Mean vibe to it but, yeah... he let some lady put some cool stuff in his hair rather than giving it to charity or whatever. Not evil or bad, but certainly not what we see as Jesus-like.

    Encouraging strife - I think he was predicting it rather than encouraging it. He didn't seem upset that it would happen, however. From a certain perspective this can be seen as very bad. It turned out to be quite accurate and early centuries Christianity did cause a lot of strife, though on a relatively small scale.

    Keeping salvation a secret - This relies on the acceptance of him as Messiah, so... He used parables to teach people who weren't ready to drink the koolaid, not sure how that made the list.

    Chastising people for not killing kids - Jesus famously rejected the Ten Commandments in favor of the Two (love God, love each other)... he was a huge opponent of silly Jewish laws. I think here he is saying "If you are so gung ho on Moses.. are you gonna kill insolent children? No? Didn't think so. So stop it with the eye for an eye crap." Anyone who knows anything about Jesus knows this one is bologna...

    Killing around 2,000 pigs - He didn't kill them, they committed suicide for some reason.

    Approving of beating people - It was just a story. He certainly wasn't advocating it. It was allegory, like "So, you know how if a slave misbehaves they get beaten? Right, so I will compare that to ....." You get the idea.


    ... so, from this list - one incident of Jewish-style racism and an acceptance of the strife his teaching would cause... that is about it.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There probably was a historical Jesus. Most of the things attributed to him, however, are likely the stuff of legend. This includes the established myths of pre-existing deities like Mithras and Osiris, as well as co-opting the messianic heritage of the Old Testament. See Clysta Kinstler's The Moon Under Her Feet for an alternate interpretation of the Jesus story.
    Did you know about Horus? -

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5a.htm
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #27
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkigos View Post
    Just to be an INTP dewey decimal and correct skylights' list into the things that were actually bad:
    I know it's an INTP compulsion to nitpick, so let me just point out that OP asked for crappy things Jesus did, not evil things. No, angrily dumping over people's wares, pointlessly yelling at God, letting someone use expensive perfume on his feet instead of selling it for charity, speaking in coded language about salvation to protect it from the unworthy (I actually think this is a pretty bad one), passively condoning murder of children and slavery, forcing the huge herd of swine off a cliff (he did actively cause that, since he sent self-destructive demons into them), and a minor racial slur aren't quite up to Hitler-level eeeevil, but they are still crappy.

  8. #28
    Member Arkigos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I know it's an INTP compulsion to nitpick, so let me just point out that OP asked for crappy things Jesus did, not evil things. No, angrily dumping over people's wares, pointlessly yelling at God, letting someone use expensive perfume on his feet instead of selling it for charity, speaking in coded language about salvation to protect it from the unworthy (I actually think this is a pretty bad one), passively condoning murder of children and slavery, forcing the huge herd of swine off a cliff (he did actively cause that, since he sent self-destructive demons into them), and a minor racial slur aren't quite up to Hitler-level eeeevil, but they are still crappy.
    Fair enough... I think I inferred 'evil' from the example offered in the OP.

    I don't agree with the interpretation you still hold of some of Jesus' actions... but my previous post can stand in that regard.

    I'll call it "Mischief Managed" and be done with it.

  9. #29
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkigos View Post
    Fair enough... I think I inferred 'evil' from the example offered in the OP.

    I don't agree with the interpretation you still hold of some of Jesus' actions... but my previous post can stand in that regard.

    I'll call it "Mischief Managed" and be done with it.
    Haha ok. Out of curiosity, are you Christian? I was raised Catholic and now identify as an agnostic panentheist. Our backgrounds may have some impact on varying interpretations.

  10. #30
    Member Arkigos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Haha ok. Out of curiosity, are you Christian? I was raised Catholic and now identify as an agnostic panentheist. Our backgrounds may have some impact on varying interpretations.
    I was raised as a.... er, nothing? As a child it just never really came up... I only encountered it in a sort of superstitious folksy way. Nothing of it was taught in my house and my father, an ISTP, was antagonistic toward organized religion. My mother, an INTJ, was Ni sentimental about having been raised Mormon but was utterly non-practicing. She had us baptized but that was the beginning and end of it. My brother, an ENFP had a youthful encounter with it that quickly soured and has remained soured. My sister, and ESFJ, has never been religious at all.

    In my late teens my love for knowledge bloomed into a great passion for Philosophy and Religion. I became obsessed with religious figures like Siddhartha Guatama, Martin Luther, and Jesus, and (in my mind) Socrates! LOL

    I got really into the New Testament and aggressively pursued it on a scholarly level. I love the things taught in it and I think Jesus, as depicted in it, was an incredible figure. I see him as a great NF and I believe that his wisdom has bettered the world significantly. I do not hold him responsible for the state of Christianity today as it is not even kind of what he taught. I chuckle and the extreme cognitive dissonance seen in modern Christians. They have to glaze over a lot of what Jesus taught in order to justify their views.

    I think the real villain in the history of Christianity is that we still teach and quote from the Old Testament. The Old Testament says "stone the sinner", Christ said "who are you to judge anyone? Instead, love them." Yet most Christians speak of loving the sinner while they throw the stone. Is that Christ's fault? I cannot begin to comprehend why we still talk about the Ten Commandments when Christ specifically rejected them... on several occasions. There are two commandments only, he said: Love God, Love each other. Everything else falls in place from that. When is the last time you heard a Christian in the public view say something like that? Christ was a total NF hippie and what he taught was beyond progressive at the time.

    This is sort of my line of thought. Ultimately, I am an agnostic who is nevertheless a great fan of Christ as a philosopher and think that even most of his dogmatic teachings are superb as a philosophy. Even he said that belief in his divinity would not save anyone (though John and Paul seem to have missed that memo) but that acceptance of the spirit of God was the true requirement - a spirit that I agree with Christ is simply that feeling that leads to charity, love, empathy, hope, etc.

    TMI?

    arkigos = {
    mbti_type: INTP,
    cog_funcs: INTP.get_cog_funcs(),
    political_slogan: 'The INTP .... who cares!',
    influences: ['Socrates', 'Jesus', 'Descartes', 'John Stuart Mill', 'Kurt Cobain'],
    interests: ['History', 'Programming', 'Philosophy', 'Typing', 'Advocacy of the Devil'],
    alignment: neutral_good,
    }

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