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  1. #41
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So you are saying that emotions and sexual drives are outside of logic?
    Are you saying that everyone is an NT?

  2. #42
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Are you saying that everyone is an NT?
    Are you answering my question with a question?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #43
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I find when NTs can't justify their values with reason, they objectify them and claim they exist as natural laws or standards in the objective world. Then they can reason that anyone who doesn't follow them is both immoral and irrational.


    The nature of a thing (and thus the laws that govern its nature) is determined by its essence, and its essence is discovered by using reason to make distinctions between what it is and what it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Faith, as a philosophical ideal.

    Assembling a system of belief without empirical proof.

    I suppose the application of which could be as simple as (to your example) having a reasonable belief that I'll wake up tomorrow. On a larger scale, the concept of faith could be diversified to incorporate an enduring reliance on...of all things, academic empiricism. (Logic)


    "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Heb 11:1, NIV).

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    This is what I'm not seeing, either...

    'Logic' is not a thing left alone by itself. It must be applied to things to exist. It's less of a thing that has an 'inside' and an 'outside,' like the study of music or a building, but rather a worldview.

    Even though many people compartmentalize religion and the rest of their lives, there are people with a 'religious worldview.' It's difficult to separate religion from how they perceive the world (for better or for worse). A 'logical' view of the world is most natural for NTs -- as in seeing things in terms of logic is the default. That doesn't mean it's the only way for them to see the world, but it's the most natural way.
    Damn Hap! How old are you?

    If you don't mind, please unpack what you meant when you said that logic must be applied to things that exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Axioms... is the law of noncontradiction universally valid? (this goes back to the first point about 'systems of logic') In other words, if A is true, then not-A must be false, and if not-A is true, then A must be false... well, as someone mentioned, quantum mechanics has turned such notions on their heads! It seems, from what little we're finding out, that certain subatomic particles can both occupy and be absent from the same space at the same time… not-A and A are both true AND false (at the same ‘now’)… so the law of contradiction breaks down… but does it still hold true on the macro scale? How do we determine WHEN/WHERE/---- it breaks down?

    Think of all the assumptions our thoughts rely on… I don’t want to keep blabbing… I’ll summarize… this is my main point:

    An _NT_ who really uses logic to view the world and understand her/himself is the least logical person in the world if he/she doesn’t realize the limitations of and question her/his logical systems… the inevitable end of logic as a whole is its self-questioning… and beyond all this, just because you’re an NT doesn’t make you some stereotypical lizard-like scientist bah-humbugging art and literature as wishy-washy and illogical… in fact, it may lead you more into art and literature as alternative logics… I may be misreading myself, but that’s how I got into literature and abandoned (as a professional option) physics…
    Is the law of non-contradiction not one of the assumptions our thoughts rely on? Should we view or thoughts in light of our experience or should we view or experience in light of our thoughts?

    Damn good thread.

    I'll be back.

  4. #44
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post

    The nature of a thing (and thus the laws that govern its nature) is determined by its essence, and its essence is discovered by using reason to make distinctions between what it is and what it is not.

    . . . .

    Is the law of non-contradiction not one of the assumptions our thoughts rely on? Should we view or thoughts in light of our experience or should we view or experience in light of our thoughts?
    The problem with the notion of all things, each and every one, having an essence, is that it inevitably brings us back to form-function and Platonic ideas... does a hammer have the essence of hammerness, or do we imbue it with that? If you chip away at the hammer's handle steadily, bit by bit, when does it stop, if at all, being a hammer? What happens if the whole handle (assuming the handle is made of wood and the head of some kind of metal) is chipped away and you're left with a hammer-head? What is it? A hammer-head or a piece of metal? I might still be able to use it as a hammer...

    As for what you said about the law of non-contradiction... it certainly is one of the axiomatic rules of logic most people, at least formally, follow. it certainly is inviolable in courts of law (if the murder took place in San Francisco, and the suspect was in New York at the time of the murder, the suspect gets acquitted... at least as far as being the person who pulled the trigger)... but when it comes to quantum physics, or art, or double-entendres in literature, or faith... the law of non-contradiction is often abandoned, or dropped halfway in...
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  5. #45
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    The problem with the notion of all things, each and every one, having an essence, is that it inevitably brings us back to form-function and Platonic ideas... does a hammer have the essence of hammerness, or do we imbue it with that? If you chip away at the hammer's handle steadily, bit by bit, when does it stop, if at all, being a hammer? What happens if the whole handle (assuming the handle is made of wood and the head of some kind of metal) is chipped away and you're left with a hammer-head? What is it? A hammer-head or a piece of metal? I might still be able to use it as a hammer...
    Your argument sounds approximate to an interesting (Copenhagen Convention Effect) scientific posit: Does an object exist in superposition to all other objects (and points) until it is classified by a sentient party?

    Does said classification reduce the complexity (and subsequent creativity) of the once-unclassified object?

  6. #46
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    Wrong preconceptions, damn I hate them.

    Bad assumptions, god do they suck ass.

    Jumping to inaccurate conclusions, what a waste.

    Simple.

  7. #47
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Damn Hap! How old are you?

    If you don't mind, please unpack what you meant when you said that logic must be applied to things that exist.
    Umm. I'm fifteen.

    I didn't say that it had to be applied to things that exist, but that it (logic) must be applied to things if it (logic) is to exist. Logic cannot exist on its own. It has to be attached to something else, whether it be physical things, concepts, ideas, or more logic. Reason cannot exist if there's nothing to reason.

    That's all I meant.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #48
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Are you answering my question with a question?
    Indeed. Plus, you know full well why. Question is : do you want to address the implied point, or do you just prefer to argue? I'd rather lose and learn something, myself

  9. #49
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Umm. I'm fifteen.

    I didn't say that it had to be applied to things that exist, but that it (logic) must be applied to things if it (logic) is to exist. Logic cannot exist on its own. It has to be attached to something else, whether it be physical things, concepts, ideas, or more logic. Reason cannot exist if there's nothing to reason.

    That's all I meant.
    I think Haphazard makes a good point. In my reading, he's talking about logical rules as applied to empirical data. The relevance of general rules to particular events. Logic "on its own" is like a long discussion about nothing. But logic is an idealized model of A follows B and this doesn't always work.

    Haphazard, even though you're only in high school, I would suggest that you get in touch with some Kant, if you haven't already. Not that I'm saying he's right (I'm not!)... but he investigates issues like this very deeply. Indeed, he raises questions regarding just how far we can apply universal laws of logic to the so-called "real world", citing the divide between us and the world (mediated by the senses, intuition, reason, so forth) as an explanation for why we can never prove the existence or non-existence of God, Immortality, and the Soul. Some would say this extends in to much of human affairs, maybe even all affairs that are distinctively human. I, though, disagree on this last point. A lot to learn about here.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #50
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    The problem with the notion of all things, each and every one, having an essence, is that it inevitably brings us back to form-function and Platonic ideas... does a hammer have the essence of hammerness, or do we imbue it with that? If you chip away at the hammer's handle steadily, bit by bit, when does it stop, if at all, being a hammer? What happens if the whole handle (assuming the handle is made of wood and the head of some kind of metal) is chipped away and you're left with a hammer-head? What is it? A hammer-head or a piece of metal? I might still be able to use it as a hammer...

    As for what you said about the law of non-contradiction... it certainly is one of the axiomatic rules of logic most people, at least formally, follow. it certainly is inviolable in courts of law (if the murder took place in San Francisco, and the suspect was in New York at the time of the murder, the suspect gets acquitted... at least as far as being the person who pulled the trigger)... but when it comes to quantum physics, or art, or double-entendres in literature, or faith... the law of non-contradiction is often abandoned, or dropped halfway in...
    Every individual has an essence. Form/function? To be is to do, and I learn about your essence based on what you do. The essence of a thing is the set of qualities that thing, and only that thing, always has. Sets of things can also have an essence: the desiderata being the set of qualities that all members and only members always have. We may not have sufficient data to determine what a thing is, and we'll never know everything about anything, but that doesn't mean we can't know something about some things--based on what they do.

    :confused: I don't see the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I think Haphazard makes a good point. In my reading, he's talking about logical rules as applied to empirical data. The relevance of general rules to particular events. Logic "on its own" is like a long discussion about nothing. But logic is an idealized model of A follows B and this doesn't always work.

    Haphazard, even though you're only in high school, I would suggest that you get in touch with some Kant, if you haven't already. Not that I'm saying he's right (I'm not!)... but he investigates issues like this very deeply. Indeed, he raises questions regarding just how far we can apply universal laws of logic to the so-called "real world", citing the divide between us and the world (mediated by the senses, intuition, reason, so forth) as an explanation for why we can never prove the existence or non-existence of God, Immortality, and the Soul. Some would say this extends in to much of human affairs, maybe even all affairs that are distinctively human. I, though, disagree on this last point. A lot to learn about here.
    A fifteen year old reading Kant? nice. I think Hap's ready for him.

    As for logic being applied to things, I don't think we disagree, but I may have jumped forward. Logic can't exist on its own; it has to be applied to something, else it is divested of meaning. As you said, "Logic "on its own" is like a long discussion about nothing." Is it possible to have a meaningful conversation about nothing?

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