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  1. #31
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    NTs are always saying how such and such is illogical, I just wonder if NTs embrace anything that can't be explained by logic.
    I think I understand the intended meaning of your question, but logic is technically a pretty narrow subset of what even a one-dimensional NT (if such existed) would be able to embrace. "Reason" or "scientific worldview" might be better terms. Even then, it gets kind of complicated, because "reason" can include the whole history of philosophy, which can include perspectives that critique science.

    But even if we limit the discussion to just logic, even logic is complex, if you include fuzzy logic and other varieties or logic. It's even possible to write very small, simple programs that use programming logic to imitate emotional decision making for "intelligent agents".

    Even a scientific worldview could still have room for the numinous, the mysterious and the ineffable if you get into chaos theory, quantum physics, self-organization and other newer branches of science.

    I'm just not seeing a huge unbridgeable chasm between "logic" (or "reason" or "science") and all the rest of reality and human experience.

  2. #32
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    I'm just not seeing a huge unbridgeable chasm between "logic" (or "reason" or "science") and all the rest of reality and human experience.
    This is what I'm not seeing, either...

    'Logic' is not a thing left alone by itself. It must be applied to things to exist. It's less of a thing that has an 'inside' and an 'outside,' like the study of music or a building, but rather a worldview.

    Even though many people compartmentalize religion and the rest of their lives, there are people with a 'religious worldview.' It's difficult to separate religion from how they perceive the world (for better or for worse). A 'logical' view of the world is most natural for NTs -- as in seeing things in terms of logic is the default. That doesn't mean it's the only way for them to see the world, but it's the most natural way.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #33
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So in other words, you can't truly accept something until you have a logical reason for it? Even if you have to generate them yourself?
    Yes, for me anyway. Well in the most part. Anything that has a average to moderate influence in my life has to have some logic. If the thing does not have logic I will be trying to put logic to it.

    I will accept stuff though for example, some forms of art. Abstract art's logic is that it isn't logical. Even though I do not prefer that art style.

    Another example is myself, I have trouble accepting my emotions when they don't make sense. Such as an attraction to someone for no apparent reason. I don't like it when others are illogical, but what frustrates me the most, is when I myself am illogical. And usually the only reason I become illogical is when my emotions get involved.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
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  4. #34
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Before I give you my two and one hapenny, I'll state that I largely tend to agree with Geoff, Athenian200 and SquirrelTao... but my own thoughts:

    What is logic? Aren’t there several systems of logic? Consider the massive differences between Aristotelian, Hegelian and Fregean logics. How are we to even begin a conversation about NTs’ being logical when we haven't even determined what the domain(s) of logic(s) is/are?

    I disagree strongly with the notion that creativity is in some sense a suspension of logic (qua thinking, calculating function). As a musician and writer, I find that in appraising the works of Bach and Mozart, or Joyce and Shakespeare, I, as a(n admittedly far far far far outclassed) comrade know that in order to create the works of art they did, they had to have had rigorously logical mindsets, which moved syllogistically or otherwise from premises to conclusions. You can't tell me that Bach's contrapuntal style, building melodies upwards from bass lines, is not a highly logical system. Creativity has many forms. Even Jackson Pollock's work, which some might call the wild extravagance of artistic license, of creativity, displays a strong logical faculty thinking hard about cause (the paint on canvas) and effect (e.g. an autumnal 'feeling'). Truly great art is, to put it simplistically and in typing terms, the ideal synergy of feeling and thinking… people often like to think that Mozart just spun amazingly complex tunes out of thin air, when that’s not true… his strong emotional self was allowed expression through a very sophisticated set of musical rules and laws that he learned backwards and forwards from his father, Leopold, and then ‘riffed’ off of… ever heard of Gradus ad Parnassum!? [Edit: Parnassum, not Parnassus... for grammar buffs, substituted nominative for what should have been accusative]

    As an ENTP, I do find that I have such a strong affinity towards proof that I am often stumped when it comes to taking moral stands. For the sake of maintaining my sanity and tenuous position in respectable society, I have to live my life a certain way, as if accepting the validity of certain legislative truths (for instance, one shouldn't smoke marijuana in public spaces, or one shouldn't curse in classrooms) when in reality I see no problem with these things. Taking a firm "logical" stand, as someone astutely pointed out, is one of the most difficult things in the world to do! (see next paragraph)

    Axioms... is the law of noncontradiction universally valid? (this goes back to the first point about 'systems of logic') In other words, if A is true, then not-A must be false, and if not-A is true, then A must be false... well, as someone mentioned, quantum mechanics has turned such notions on their heads! It seems, from what little we're finding out, that certain subatomic particles can both occupy and be absent from the same space at the same time… not-A and A are both true AND false (at the same ‘now’)… so the law of contradiction breaks down… but does it still hold true on the macro scale? How do we determine WHEN/WHERE/---- it breaks down?

    Think of all the assumptions our thoughts rely on… I don’t want to keep blabbing… I’ll summarize… this is my main point:

    An _NT_ who really uses logic to view the world and understand her/himself is the least logical person in the world if he/she doesn’t realize the limitations of and question her/his logical systems… the inevitable end of logic as a whole is its self-questioning… and beyond all this, just because you’re an NT doesn’t make you some stereotypical lizard-like scientist bah-humbugging art and literature as wishy-washy and illogical… in fact, it may lead you more into art and literature as alternative logics… I may be misreading myself, but that’s how I got into literature and abandoned (as a professional option) physics…
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

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    I razed a slum, Amen.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    I don't score really hardcore on the thinking side of things anyway, but yeah I care a great deal about things outside of logic: people, art, nature, color, food. It's just that I tend to approach things in a very logical fashion...I tend to approach life with the idea that "everything happens for a reason." Granted, not every reason is a big fucking deal and there are simple explanations for things, but my hyperactive mind naturally jumps to that kind of stuff.

    I hate too much logic because I think it's really boring. I do think philosophically and am a pretty intense guy but I'm not big on "If A then B" kind of thing...all of my thinking usually relates to the world around me usually (i.e. people, but I think a lot about everything anyway...my art teacher in 11th grade said that I could wax philosophical about a stain on the wall, not that I necessarily get a kick out of it). The NT part that gels with me most is this idea of things being "interesting" in some way, and that model of interesting is complicated and arbitrary.

    Edit: I also have the tendency to make up reasons for things. Most of the time it doesn't take much effort for me to do so and I usually drop whatever it was that concerned me after it has been "resolved" in that way.
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Actually, I just thought of a rather interesting way to interpret Kiddo's question. I was slightly bored, please forgive the rambling.

    How can you care about something outside of logic, if you believe that everything (including human beings and their emotional responses) exists within logic in some manner? Logic, by it's very definition, has to exist within and be applicable to everything in order to have meaning.

    Even if something did exist outside of logic, how could someone answer your question satisfactorily outside of logic? Questions, comprehension, and language themselves are inherently constrained by logic at some level. The irony is that you're using logic yourself to ask NT's to describe something that not only exists outside of logic (and hence outside of their awareness of and ability to communicate it), but something they care about that exists outside it.

    You do constrain the meaning of logic a bit too much. It comes from the Greek word "logos," which also meant "word, thought, or idea." In other words, our ability to communicate with one another with any degree of accuracy is dependent on each of us being able to understand logic on some level, whether we accept/value it or not. Langauge as we know it could not exist without logic.

    I cannot tell you why NT's value logic or what they think it is, but I can tell you what I see in it personally.

    If you were to ask me what it was, I would say that it's much simpler than any particular system typically used to describe it. A choice to value logic is simply to develop the belief that what we can perceive and comprehend, and the patterns we can infer from what we perceive/comprehend are meaningful in some context, and are worth examining. It's to believe that some aspects of reality can be comprehended, predicted, and manipulated by human beings, and that this ability to comprehend and manipulate it to some degree is not meaningless. It's to believe that cultivating and broadening that ability can give us something valuable, and take us to places we couldn't have dreamed of in the past. To value logic is to believe that curiousity and the desire for improvement/refinement of things are not insanity.

    Another guess:
    People often say to NT's that they've hurt their feelings, but they neglect something important... they've hurt the NT's feelings as well. Are not curiousity and a desire for improvement/perfection of understanding or things emotions as well? And isn't logic the greatest manifestion of those emotions? To say that logic has no meaning is, to an NT, the same as saying that happiness, friendship and love have no meaning would be for anyone else. To ignore logic or violate it, would be the same for an NT as ignoring or stepping on what is meaningful to any other person. Would you do that if you could help it? The point is, NT's do have emotions and plenty of them that they openly acknowledge, they just have different emotions as dominant/strengths than most people. This set of emotions is stronger in NT's and weaker in others (although it's still there), while what we normally think of as emotion is weaker in NT's and stronger in others. I would almost dare to say that they have a kind of empathy based on these emotions that works as well among NT's as normal empathy does among normal people based on their emotions.

    Now, let me ask you this, Kiddo... if you entertain the notion that curiousity and the desire to improve either ourselves or something else are nothing more than another form of insanity, what does that make NT's? Or N's in general? Are you sure you're ready to believe that? If you are, I'm willing to respect that, even if I'm not willing to join you.

  7. #37
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    NTs are always saying how such and such is illogical, I just wonder if NTs embrace anything that can't be explained by logic.
    It's cute how they also try to shut down dissenting opinion by stating that something is irrational or illogical even when reason or logic has nothing to do with the subject.

  8. #38
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    It's cute how they also try to shut down dissenting opinion by stating that something is irrational or illogical even when reason and logic has nothing to do with the subject.
    Not that I myself am important, but I thought my earlier post (and those of some others) on this thread did a decent job of at least challenging these very big assumptions about logic. But then again... as always, I've missed something:

    I don't think a highly 'logical' person, whatever that is, would be being true to the claim of logicality if he/she were to say that an aesthetic judgment were illogical/irrational... aesthetic judgments hinge on often unspoken assumptions and premises, particularly subjective likings... it's closely related to expressivism, in which philosophers postulate that there are no such things as logical moral judgments, merely "Hooray for x" or "Boo to x"... a personal feeling... but the people who have come up with such ways of looking at moral and aesthetic judgments were very logical in their approach to the question... and more often than not have strong aesthetic and moral positions of their own.

    Why are we getting so much pigeon-holing of personalities in a forum where so many of the members seem to be quite discerning, regardless of their types?
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  9. #39
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Fear could very well be illogical and I care about it, inasmuch as it affects my actions. But then, logic is subjective.

  10. #40
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Now, let me ask you this, Kiddo... if you entertain the notion that curiosity and the desire to improve either ourselves or something else are nothing more than another form of insanity, what does that make NT's? Or N's in general? Are you sure you're ready to believe that? If you are, I'm willing to respect that, even if I'm not willing to join you.
    If you are familiar with Ghandi's paradox it states, "Nothing we do can matter, but it is absolutely essential that we do it anyway." Living to be better, to create change, and to solve all the mysteries of the universe, is a futile endeavor to each individual, at best, but if past individuals had not done it, then humanity would not be where it is today.

    And as they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, but I would never claim that an NT, or NF for that matter, is anything less than original in their pursuit in life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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