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  1. #31
    Magical Firelie's Avatar
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    For me, it's just a lack of awareness. I've begun stopping myself every few hours and asking myself what I'm feeling at the moment, just so I have some connection with whatever feelings or emotions are going on under the surface.

    As far as being aware of how people are affected by my decisions, I have absolutely no clue unless there is some sort of dramatic kickback.

  2. #32
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I try to acknowledge them when I notice them but it's more a case of "know your enemy" for me, wanting to identify them so I'm aware of how they might encumber me and I can more effectively keep them out of my decision making process as much as possible. Or at least, figure out intellectually whether these particular ones ought to be given a say in the process.

    Even a few months ago though, 99% of the time I didn't have any idea what I was feeling or if I even was feeling anything at all. I've been practicing though, since my last professional test revealed my Fi to be punier than the puniest thing in the puniverse, so I'm getting better at knowing how I feel. I still don't know what I'm supposed to do with it though because intellectually I still pretty strongly believe the best thing for me to do with them is just sorta neutralize them... I tend when I identify one, to sorta 'commune' with myself to figure out a way to realistically sorta take it into account so I'm not just repressing it, but yet also find a rational way to appease it that doesn't violate my rational convictions.

    I don't think I could ever live with basing decisions on them, the most I can imagine me doing is allowing them to influence decisions, having rationally concluded that it's appropriate or constructive to do so.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  3. #33
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    wow i am very surprised indeed. you INTJ's wrote some good shit right there.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Why is it that so many thinkers view emotions as irrational? Why do they consider it irrational to include them in the decision making process? Surely learning how to ignore them does not help you grow your life into a happy one, merely perhaps a numb/neutral emotional state? Is that all a T wants? Comfortably Numb?

    So often I read thinkers posts and they are dripping with suspicion and disdain for their own emotional responses to things, we need not even talk about their response to us feelers, why?

    Do I trust my emotions to know exactly what is best for me? You can bet your last dollar I don't! Do they influence my decision making process? Of course they do, (well I am a feeler) but they give me information about which types of activities and which options may add toward living a happy life.

    The problem for many NT's I guess may be one of control, if they would admit it. Acting upon your emotions normally leaves one open and vulnerable to another person in some way, whether we are talking about relationship, friendships or even which job we want. I think many NT's hate to hand people they don't fully trust such a privileged position over them. I know I dislike it a lot. However, unless one is happy to limit their contact with other humans to a very low level then one has to be prepared to take risks with being vulnerable.

    In discussing this with some T's I find they view their emotions as coming from somewhere outside of themselves. We each have a core that we consider to be our conscious selves. Our souls if you like (in it's original meaning; which was the decision making part of the human psyche). I thin T's see their emotions as something intruding (or trying to) into the decision making parts of their psychology, F's consider it a natural part of their center.

    I'm not sure and of course I'm biased by my own preference, but I can't see how reacting to every emotion as though they are the enemy can lead to a contented and happy life. A peaceful one at best perhaps; if one eventually manages to rout or control their emotions but peace is not the same as contentedness or happiness. Some would argue that that is all they want though and I'm sorry but I think they are living under a self deception, they merely found trying to live a happy life too difficult or the process of become vulnerable too frightening and so retreat to comfortably numb. Then there is a desperate attempt to convince themselves and others who care about them, that this state is all they have ever wanted. I believe they fear it is all they can achieve and so stop trying to find a happier life and so start to convince themselves that a numb life is a happy life.

    If that is the only way t's manage to be at peace or content then it's not for me to try to force them out of it, however, I do think it's not what I'd want and I do think they may find happiness if they allowed that guttural emotional part of them inform them of what they like and want out of life.

  5. #35
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Hm, I don't think you really understood what I said, Dom

    Quite simply, you can't do something whilst simultaneously doing its opposite. There are certain things that a human mind can do that are very useful and important for society and the individual, which are best done in a detached state of mind. It's important for society to have a certain number of people who are very good at doing this, and to get very good at doing that you tend to be a person who values doing that above doing its opposite, and it tends to entail not being as good at the opposite.

    Like if you wanted to be a guitar maestro, you'd get there by practicing an awful lot on the guitar, but possibly at the expense of your cooking skills. That doesn't mean you disdain cooking or cooks, does it?

    For me to think the way you think and have the same attitude towards my emotions as you do towards yours (and perhaps mine too, I dunno), I'd have to not be me. That would mean I wouldn't be able to do half the things I do easily and instinctively, which I value being able to do. You wouldn't want to turn into me, because it'd mean sacrificing the things YOU have put importance on in your life and become good at.

    There are pros and cons to every way of being. My autistic daughter has obvious limitations in her interpersonal relations, but she wouldn't want to sacrifice her skills in other areas that are above those of non-autistic people, in order to be a darling of society. And I wouldn't want her to either, I accept and love her as she is, for both her strengths and her flaws.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #36
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    Level of smart in above post: Hi.

    Level of smart in below post: Also Hi.

  7. #37
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    It's kinda like a judge presiding over a court hearing. Justice is paramount, and the judge cannot let the fact that he feels sorry for the defendant blind him to his duty to carry out the law, and he also can't allow his disgust or other feelings about the defendant to prejudice him when listening to the evidence. he has to learn to identify and be aware of his feelings SO THAT he can put them aside and ensure that they don't interfere with the dispensation of justice and the law.

    I find that the way that works for me to be fairest with other people is to think a bit like the judge. In order not to behave in a way that violates my beliefs, my principles and knowledge, it's easiest if I don't allow my feelings to interfere with the process of living by those things.

    It doesn't mean I automatically think that there is no place in my life for feelings. It just means that the feelings are informed by my intellect.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #38
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    i agree with dom. emotions ARE rational. acting out of emotions despite evidence of a bad decision may not be, but understanding others' is something else altogether. punch someone in the face and i guarantee you that they'll be pissed off. not all that unpredictable or whatever.

    if anything, see it as part of the human condition. this human condition is under strict rules according to many scientists. one may argue that it is hard to gather all the required information to fully understand others' emotions (the classic subjectivity argument) but there are good general rules one could take. if one can gather more information about someone, eg. tendency to to vent anger, not talking when depressed... these rules can be refined.

    in short, understanding emotions can become a technical skill that anyone can master. i get annoyed when people (particularly T types) demonize and critique the F function, because it really isn't.

  9. #39
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hm, I don't think you really understood what I said, Dom

    Quite simply, you can't do something whilst simultaneously doing its opposite. There are certain things that a human mind can do that are very useful and important for society and the individual, which are best done in a detached state of mind. It's important for society to have a certain number of people who are very good at doing this, and to get very good at doing that you tend to be a person who values doing that above doing its opposite, and it tends to entail not being as good at the opposite.

    Like if you wanted to be a guitar maestro, you'd get there by practicing an awful lot on the guitar, but possibly at the expense of your cooking skills. That doesn't mean you disdain cooking or cooks, does it?

    For me to think the way you think and have the same attitude towards my emotions as you do towards yours (and perhaps mine too, I dunno), I'd have to not be me. That would mean I wouldn't be able to do half the things I do easily and instinctively, which I value being able to do. You wouldn't want to turn into me, because it'd mean sacrificing the things YOU have put importance on in your life and become good at.

    There are pros and cons to every way of being. My autistic daughter has obvious limitations in her interpersonal relations, but she wouldn't want to sacrifice her skills in other areas that are above those of non-autistic people, in order to be a darling of society. And I wouldn't want her to either, I accept and love her as she is, for both her strengths and her flaws.
    Yet again: +1
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  10. #40
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I thought this thread was talking about how NT's deal with THEIR OWN emotions??

    Of course two ENFP's are likely to agree that NT's are silly and their opinions on feeling smell of poop.

    The critical thing to understand about my position is that I have not said at any point that I don't think it's important to understand both my own and others' feelings, nor to take them into account when making decisions.

    Maybe I'll address it in more detail when I've got time later... if I get time
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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