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Thread: INTP + INFJ

  1. #71
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I’m going to say the same thing about state that I said about Kalach: it’s my experience that Ni doms with advanced degrees in philosophy just sound cryptic. When you’re in an environment where articulating abstract concepts takes on the edge of being a competitive sport, it’s just what happens. I don’t know, I was taken aback just now in reading the presumption that it could be a “dominating tactic”- just because I’ve been friends with state for a couple years now and I don’t see it (and I do find male entitlement repulsive, on top of being a total J- so if I’d noticed anything like that before in him I’d remember). Cryptic, yes. Possibly even a bit hot-headed. But I don’t think some of the insinuations being made are fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I dont really think she was trying to be a villain or anything like that :/ . This sort of "woah where the heck did that come from" things are bit annoying to INTPs and strongly relate to that last part she said about the prejudice/J close mindedness. I find it funny that in the reply, which is clearly wholy based on misunderstanding, you are preaching about having to understand others to be understood yourself. But you know, this has a positive side too, luckily NTPs are (usually)good at figuring out where the problem is when something is off(your response in this case) and see that you simply (pre)misjudged due to Jness, while some others might see you simply as someone who escaped the asylum. I do recognize the possibility of this guess of mine being completely wrong, it is just a guess, but seems the most likely thing from my perspective. And now you probably think im being mean too, but im just being true

    Something to keep in mind is that Js (especially IJs) aren’t just reacting to what’s being said in the immediate moment, we tend to react to our entire experience of a person. I guess I can see how this looks like “prejudice” (especially if past experience of a person fades almost immediately for you- then you wouldn’t understand what it’s like to have that linger and color your present experience), but the term “prejudice” infers there’s something decidedly inaccurate and/or irrational about it. And Pe’ers can tend to get dismissive about it- as if any opinion/judgment that’s based on something that isn’t *right there* in front of them is necessarily inaccurate and irrational. I’m sure it looks like what we’re reacting to “comes from nowhere”- just like the details that seem like a priority to Ti’ers come “from nowhere” and could hardly be less of a priority to Te’ers- but isn’t it annoying when Te’ers write off everything they don’t immediately understand as “stupid” or “idiotic”?

    Pe doms in particular can even get bullying about it, but anyway. I’m pretty sure the “always play the villain” is more about cumulative experience of salome than anything she specifically said in her first response to him in this thread- if it were the first time he’d read anything by her, he almost certainly wouldn’t have reacted like that. It’s totally available to think we’re annoying as hell (and to go on and on and on about how completely annoying we are)- but we’re Js and comments like that get filed and accumulate. [eta: it's worth mentioning that I do think it's unfortunate salome seems to hate us with the fire of a thousand burning suns, but I'm sure she has her reasons, and my only point here is that she mentions it *a lot* and stuff like that accumulates.] I’m pretty sure there are a couple NFJs here who had a bad reaction to me at some point and still see me in a negative light as a result of past interaction with me….it just happens. It’s not “prejudice”, we just remember stuff and it colors what we see in the present moment, often times without us even realizing that particular ‘color’ may not be there in that isolated given moment.

    ***

    And in regard to the op- I usually like INTPs. There are two I have irl (a good friend, and my dad) and I really appreciate their calm demeanor. We tend to get wound up about the same things, only they don’t *really* get wound up- they can make jokes about it and it really helps me to take things less seriously. <-I can’t emphasize the importance of that enough, or how incredibly much I appreciate it. And in the forum here I find that INTPs (and ENTPs as well) have a knack for articulating points succinctly and immediately that it would take me days (and pages) to make myself, so that’s a real plus too.
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  2. #72
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m going to say the same thing about state that I said about Kalach: it’s my experience that Ni doms with advanced degrees in philosophy just sound cryptic. When you’re in an environment where articulating abstract concepts takes on the edge of being a competitive sport, it’s just what happens. I don’t know, I was taken aback just now in reading the presumption that it could be a “dominating tactic”- just because I’ve been friends with state for a couple years now and I don’t see it (and I do find male entitlement repulsive, on top of being a total J- so if I’d noticed anything like that before in him I’d remember). Cryptic, yes. Possibly even a bit hot-headed. But I don’t think some of the insinuations being made are fair.
    Aren't competitive sports based on dominating? When people are hot-headed aren't they in a mindset that is opposite of submissive typically? If impressions are incorrect to people without a context for knowing a particular poster, it could be useful for that poster to know a wider range of what they are communicating. I used to be a moderator on philosophy forums for a few years and people typically managed to communicate clearly with each other, although I don't know how many were "INFJs".

    When resolving conflict it is typically best to deliberately use language with which the other person is comfortable and familiar. Diverging in communication style typically exacerbates conflict.
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  3. #73
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I think it's more about dominating the abstract concepts than it is about dominating other people, just like in competitive sports I suspect it's more about dominating/mastering the sport. I agree that it's useful for a poster to frame what s/he is saying for the particular audience they are saying it to. I can't say my experience of people with philosophy degrees is vast- I'm only at bachelor's level philosophy degree myself, and a couple of the friends I had from that went on for further degrees- but it just seems to me like it becomes a background priority (over and above that of being widely understood) to give some definition to the vaguest parts of human experience. I think his vagueness is a consequence of that, not a tactic employed to have some affect on another person.
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  4. #74
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think it's more about dominating the abstract concepts than it is about dominating other people, just like in competitive sports I suspect it's more about dominating/mastering the sport. I agree that it's useful for a poster to frame what s/he is saying for the particular audience they are saying it to. I can't say my experience of people with philosophy degrees is vast- I'm only at bachelor's level philosophy degree myself, and a couple of the friends I had from that went on for further degrees- but it just seems to me like it becomes a background priority (over and above that of being widely understood) to give some definition to the vaguest parts of human experience. I think his vagueness is a consequence of that, not a tactic employed to have some affect on another person.
    That is interesting and always a reminder of how overwhelmingly complex people are in their communication. I sometimes despair of it and then just go back to hoping for the best and trying to remember the successes rather than the failures.

    I have found both INTPs and INFJs, and many others, to be fascinated by the cryptic, depending on the context of the exploration. In poetry, literature, philosophy, any investigation of the mind that requires a distilled sense of language, there is logic and subjectivity blended in such a way as to hold plenty of fascination for different types of processing. I have read posts by some of the most Ti-dominated INTPs in which the poetic and philosophical is fully embraced with all its specialized language.

    Conflict can bring on a different set of assumptions about what is being communicated.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #75
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Are you being deliberately cryptic as an aggressive tactic?
    ...
    The idea of becoming more cryptic in conflict is unsettling and unnatural in my perspective. It is inefficient from an emotional standpoint because it is unlikely to resolve the conflict, but could work as a dominating tactic.
    ...
    I wonder if INFJs have a wider range of potential behaviors because of the whole Ni-dom part of their personality?
    Good call.
    There are two kinds of NF men, the ones who are comfortable with their feminine nature, and the ones who are not. The latter kind are given to neuroses and a defensive sort of aggression or passive-aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m going to say the same thing about state that I said about Kalach: it’s my experience that Ni doms with advanced degrees in philosophy just sound cryptic. When you’re in an environment where articulating abstract concepts takes on the edge of being a competitive sport, it’s just what happens.
    This seems like a pretty inflexible, not to say, elitist approach. It's also rather foolish (if one's goal really is clear communication) to employ that style outside of the appropriate domain and irrespective of audience. If we are to assume that we are not talking about foolish people here, what other motive might they have for purposeful obscurity?
    I would propose that your friend still has much to learn about those "effective habits".

    I don’t know, I was taken aback just now in reading the presumption that it could be a “dominating tactic”- just because I’ve been friends with state for a couple years now and I don’t see it (and I do find male entitlement repulsive, on top of being a total J- so if I’d noticed anything like that before in him I’d remember). Cryptic, yes. Possibly even a bit hot-headed. But I don’t think some of the insinuations being made are fair.
    I note you're not similarly taken aback by the insinuations made about me. But then, you've already made your mind up after just two interactions. How fabulous to be so very sure of yourself!
    Actually, his post didn't make me angry, despite how insulting and condescending it is. I like it when people express themselves in unconventional ways - even when they're way off-base.
    Yours does. It fucking blows my mind.

    Something to keep in mind is that Js (especially IJs) aren’t just reacting to what’s being said in the immediate moment, we tend to react to our entire experience of a person. I guess I can see how this looks like “prejudice” (especially if past experience of a person fades almost immediately for you- then you wouldn’t understand what it’s like to have that linger and color your present experience), but the term “prejudice” infers there’s something decidedly inaccurate and/or irrational about it.
    It is both inaccurate AND irrational. It looks like prejudice because it IS prejudice. And here's how that happens: You get hold of the wrong idea based on a throwaway or impersonal remark which you wrongly interpret as personal criticism and which hurts your feelings. You're too aloof/proud/sure of yourself/ whatever to seek clarification, so you just fester in your misunderstanding. You've made your mind up about the person and from now on you will dismiss anything they say based on irrational personal dislike, rather than being able to examine it dispassionately, on its own merits. You will look for anything that backs up your prejudice and dismiss anything that doesn't, just to keep you secure in your judgement.

    Reacting to your "entire experience of a person" when the sum total of that experience consists solely of your own / second-hand distorted perceptions and imaginings with absolutely no personal contact, IS prejudicial. You are allowing your preconceived ideas about that person's worth or integrity to colour your estimation of everything they say. You are actively closing yourself off from new information. You are preventing yourself from having an opportunity to revise your judgment or broaden your mind. It is the height of intellectual dishonesty and laziness. Not to mention, profoundly discourteous.

    I’m pretty sure the “always play the villain” is more about cumulative experience of salome
    How unlike you to be pretty sure of something you know fuck all about.
    I have had almost nothing to do with this character, other than complimenting his posts in rep (when I can steel myself to read/parse them.) What could he possibly hope to achieve by responding in that way? Do you think he's genuinely interested in understanding me, or do you think he just didn't want to miss the opportunity for a condescending reprimand? Be honest now.
    It’s totally available to think we’re annoying as hell (and to go on and on and on about how completely annoying we are)- but we’re Js and comments like that get filed and accumulate. [eta: it's worth mentioning that I do think it's unfortunate salome seems to hate us with the fire of a thousand burning suns, ]
    What. The. Fuck? Are you insane or just vindictive?
    I wonder why this thread didn't manage to "get filed" in your book of reckoning? What's that? Because it didn't reinforce your prejudice? Ah, yes, of course.

    FTR, INFJ women are the *only* group I have ever singled out for praise in that way. I still endorse those sentiments. However, you aren't perfect. And your judgments certainly are not, whatever you might want to believe. That's probably the biggest lesson for you to learn, and at least partially accounts for the range of differences fia observed.


    Edit. In the "which type produces the best posts?" thread, I voted INFJ. Most, if not all the people I've nominated to be moderators on this forum are INFJ. I gush, endlessly, about how much I admire NFs, and from all this you glean that I "hate you with the fire of a thousand burning suns"? That's one helluva persecution complex you have right there.

    I don't hate any type, though I find myself least compatible with INTJs. By extension, I struggle with the J mindset, in general. This is not hatred, in fact I have often envied many of the attributes of Jness. But I can both admire something / one and not want to live with it, or even be around it for extended periods. Quite often, I find Js frustrating to deal with, it's an experience much like this: (and they find me similarly frustrating) and so it's best that we don't get in each other's way too much.

    It actually surprises me that this is not a common pattern, and that Ps and Js are frequently attracted to each other. I have the kind of brain that is always looking for patterns and trying to explain inconsistencies. In this thread, the most obvious pattern / inconsistency is that the Male INTP + Female INFJ combination is something of a hit, whereas the reverse is seldom so. All we have to speculate upon to explain this inconsistency are the complications of gender roles, which is why I have been so doing. Perhaps if you read my comments in this light you will understand what I am doing is promoting and refining a theory, rather than engaging in some mad hate campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  6. #76
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I wonder if INFJs have a wider range of potential behaviors because of the whole Ni-dom part of their personality?
    I wonder about this too. The range of "flavours" does seem to vary enormously, partly based on enneagram type.

    I do have a hard time getting my head around the INFJ experiences I've had online, though. Under that heading I'd include either actual INFJs, or people recounting their INFJ experiences. The variety - and the anomalies with what might be called even remotely typical INFJ behaviour - has simply made me wonder if a lot of people are mistyping as INFJ. Maybe it's just that the flavour of those INFJs is quite different from mine. And yes, Ni can lead you down a lot of different roads.

    But I do wonder if many INFJ 4s aren't actually INFPs, for instance. And I've come across a good many of these sorts of stories: "My INFJ ex cheated on me a hundred times in our relationship and is currently in a relationship with three men at the same time. She is domineering, abrasive and coldly discards people like used underwear."

    Well...I'm sure there have been INFJs out there who have behaved like that, but it does surprise me a) how many people seem to have an INFJ ex (considering the apparent rarity of the type), and b) how many of those INFJ exes don't seem to sound anything like INFJs. And no, I'm not saying that all INFJs are perfect, loving caring snowflakes. Maybe there are just a lot of unhealthy INFJs out there. When someone behaves consistently quite untypically of their type, though...that makes me wonder.

    IRL I only have one friend who I am basically 100% sure is INFJ. We resemble each other a lot. I'm pretty sure she's not a type 6, though - maybe a type 1? She kind of reminds me of fidelia.

    I've encountered INFJs online whose thoughts seemed to be taken straight out of my head, and others who I felt nothing in common with in virtually any respect. Maybe INFJs do just vary enormously but I wonder why they would do that more than other types...even with Ni in the mix.

    Sorry, bit of a derail, just some thoughts triggered by fia's comment!
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  7. #77
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    That is interesting and always a reminder of how overwhelmingly complex people are in their communication. I sometimes despair of it and then just go back to hoping for the best and trying to remember the successes rather than the failures.

    I have found both INTPs and INFJs, and many others, to be fascinated by the cryptic, depending on the context of the exploration. In poetry, literature, philosophy, any investigation of the mind that requires a distilled sense of language, there is logic and subjectivity blended in such a way as to hold plenty of fascination for different types of processing. I have read posts by some of the most Ti-dominated INTPs in which the poetic and philosophical is fully embraced with all its specialized language.

    Conflict can bring on a different set of assumptions about what is being communicated.
    I read and write poetry (among other forms of writing) and have been a hardcore literature buff my whole life (that can vary from analyzing it minutely all the way to just reading it for simple enjoyment.) I find, though, that I would rather that people were more transparent and straightforward in their everyday communication. I feel like people keep things ambiguous and undercover so they can remain uncommitted and get what they want, effectively.

    I think that may be partly why some people have thought I'm ISFJ, and even I have wondered. I don't think a lot of my Ni use is very visible, because I keep it that way. It has to do with my artistic passions and how I perceive the world and how these interconnect and so on. But I'm more Fe (generally) in how I deal with people, including on a forum like this. I feel as though the arts are a safe opportunity to let Ni run wild. I tend to get irritated when people are too cryptic in everyday life.

    (Apparently all of the above is not untypical of an INFJ type 6.)
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  8. #78
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I think that may be partly why some people have thought I'm ISFJ, and even I have wondered. I don't think a lot of my Ni use is very visible, because I keep it that way. It has to do with my artistic passions and how I perceive the world and how these interconnect and so on. But I'm more Fe (generally) in how I deal with people, including on a forum like this. I feel as though the arts are a safe opportunity to let Ni run wild. I tend to get irritated when people are too cryptic in everyday life.
    I can identify with the gist of this and Fia's comment. I very much enjoy the cryptic and the blending of philosophy and poetry, but in practical matters or where conveyance of particular bits of information is necessary, I don't like dialogue that muddies or confuses the point. The blend of philosophy and poetry is different to me, because the poetry in that sense can be used to draw out and support the philosophy and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    But I do wonder if many INFJ 4s aren't actually INFPs, for instance. And I've come across a good many of these sorts of stories: "My INFJ ex cheated on me a hundred times in our relationship and is currently in a relationship with three men at the same time. She is domineering, abrasive and coldly discards people like used underwear."

    Well...I'm sure there have been INFJs out there who have behaved like that, but it does surprise me a) how many people seem to have an INFJ ex (considering the apparent rarity of the type), and b) how many of those INFJ exes don't seem to sound anything like INFJs. And no, I'm not saying that all INFJs are perfect, loving caring snowflakes. Maybe there are just a lot of unhealthy INFJs out there. When someone behaves consistently quite untypically of their type, though...that makes me wonder.
    I'd agree that that sounds more FP to me. The IFJs tend to want to exert control over their personal interactions and I find that things get processed through that Fe filter -- it becomes the interface of the personal, which sometimes can feel detached. The more common flaw is remaining kind of impersonal and self-contained rather than flowing openly into the other person; I've also seen IFJs that can be needy, but there's still a tendency just to never mention it due to the Fe thing, and instead resentment can build.

    This behavior you are describing here seems contrary to the type traits.

    IRL I only have one friend who I am basically 100% sure is INFJ. We resemble each other a lot. I'm pretty sure she's not a type 6, though - maybe a type 1? She kind of reminds me of fidelia.
    IRL, I've met more (including my daughter), but I seem to seek them out. One, I met in the workplace; one, I had as a therapist; one is my daughter; one, I dated briefly in high school; and two I met within some kind of religious programming.

    I would say most if not all scanned as 1's, or 1w2's.
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  9. #79
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I wonder about this too. The range of "flavours" does seem to vary enormously, partly based on enneagram type.

    I do have a hard time getting my head around the INFJ experiences I've had online, though. Under that heading I'd include either actual INFJs, or people recounting their INFJ experiences. The variety - and the anomalies with what might be called even remotely typical INFJ behaviour - has simply made me wonder if a lot of people are mistyping as INFJ. Maybe it's just that the flavour of those INFJs is quite different from mine. And yes, Ni can lead you down a lot of different roads.
    It's not uncommon to feel that way about your own type. You tend to be acutely aware of the differences between you, whereas outside observers are more alert to the similarities.

    You also cannot rule out strength of preference. An InFJ will likely have more in common with an IsFJ than an iNfj. There are infinitive variations rather than 16 "hard" types.

    But I do wonder if many INFJ 4s aren't actually INFPs, for instance. And I've come across a good many of these sorts of stories: "My INFJ ex cheated on me a hundred times in our relationship and is currently in a relationship with three men at the same time. She is domineering, abrasive and coldly discards people like used underwear."

    Well...I'm sure there have been INFJs out there who have behaved like that, but it does surprise me a) how many people seem to have an INFJ ex (considering the apparent rarity of the type), and b) how many of those INFJ exes don't seem to sound anything like INFJs. And no, I'm not saying that all INFJs are perfect, loving caring snowflakes. Maybe there are just a lot of unhealthy INFJs out there. When someone behaves consistently quite untypically of their type, though...that makes me wonder.
    If you've come across a "good many" how is this also "untypical"? And in what way would it be typical of an INFP? It's hard to imagine a type less domineering...
    It would be typical of a narcissist, but pathologies cross type-boundaries.

    I'm hesitant to type people because it's the best way of reinforcing one's prejudices, but I know one INFJ woman (self-typed) IRL, married to an INFP man, who was pretty much all of those things and then some. In her case, she was spoilt by her parents and taught to think she was a princess and above the fray. The trouble with people who form very fixed opinions about their own superiority, is that when they are wrong, they can be very wrong indeed.

    The other side is, of course, is that it's dangerous to draw any conclusions about the accuracy of type descriptions from disgruntled exes.
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  10. #80
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    If you've come across a "good many" how is this also "untypical"? And in what way would it be typical of an INFP? It's hard to imagine a type less domineering...
    Oh, I wasn't saying it was typical of an INFP, at all. The thing about thinking that INFJ 4s might actually be INFPs was supposed to be separate from the stories about psychotic INFJs.

    I was really just saying that if typology has a valid basis, the relationship-hopping, cold, domineering, uninterested in others' feelings INFJ does not fit the commonly accepted descriptions of that type. INFJs are (more typically) supposed to have few and serious relationships, be caring about others/aware of others' feelings, and rather more reticent than domineering. (And yes, I know that's the idealised version, but it should be broadly true, or typology just doesn't have any basis.)

    So, if A LOT of INFJs are casual about relationships, abrasive, domineering, etc, then either the type descriptions for INFJ are off; or there are a lot of unhealthy INFJs not acting INFJ-like out there (because by and large an unhealthy INFJ would be more likely to become a hermit than to become abrasive/domineering); or those people are not INFJs. (Or typology is a load of rubbish.)

    You just have to spend some time on the internet to realise that INFJ is one of the preferred types for special snowflake syndrome, so I do think that a lot of people mistype.
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