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Thread: INTP + INFJ

  1. #111
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What. The. Fuck? Are you insane or just vindictive?
    I wonder why this thread didn't manage to "get filed" in your book of reckoning? What's that? Because it didn't reinforce your prejudice? Ah, yes, of course.

    FTR, INFJ women are the *only* group I have ever singled out for praise in that way. I still endorse those sentiments. However, you aren't perfect. And your judgments certainly are not, whatever you might want to believe. That's probably the biggest lesson for you to learn, and at least partially accounts for the range of differences fia observed.


    Edit. In the "which type produces the best posts?" thread, I voted INFJ. Most, if not all the people I've nominated to be moderators on this forum are INFJ. I gush, endlessly, about how much I admire NFs, and from all this you glean that I "hate you with the fire of a thousand burning suns"? That's one helluva persecution complex you have right there.

    And this. I really had no idea what to make of most of this whole post, but if nothing else I may as well clarify that mostly I was hoping the ridiculous ‘burning suns’ exaggeration (had it done its job and been funny) would extinguish any drama by being so ‘over the top’ it would be making fun of unnecessary drama before it even happened. Clearly that didn’t work. It doesn’t always work when I attempt to employ the funny. But I find that story- about the guy who kept trying to do something, well into his eighties, and kept failing at it but kept trying regardless because he had faith that eventually he’d get it right- really inspiring, and if I’m ninety years old and still haven’t said anything funny I’m going to keep trying.

    If I really believed you hated us I wouldn’t have made the comment and I wouldn’t have brought your name up at all. I generally stay the hell away from people who clearly dislike me.
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  2. #112
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I generally stay the hell away from people who clearly dislike me.
    I find such people can be useful for self-examination. Are they prejudicial or are they on to something?

    Of course the fun is in the examination of the information that they are basing this dislike around.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  3. #113
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I find such people can be useful for self-examination. Are they prejudicial or are they on to something?

    Of course the fun is in the examination of the information that they are basing this dislike around.
    Well what I meant by "I stay the hell away from" them is that I generally leave them alone. I stay out of their path as much as I can. It does linger with me though and causes me to reflect on possible reasons why, usually according to the extent which I admire/respect that individual's judgment in the first place (I might put a lot of thought into 'why' if I like the person, but hardly bat an eye if I don't feel like I'm missing out on much).

    We all have our own reasons for disliking others. I'm sorta inclined to think there's just as much (if not more) potential for self-examination in looking at who we 'hate' ourselves, especially where that feeling is particularly strong. That ol' Jung "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves" chestnut.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #114
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    We all have our own reasons for disliking others. I'm sorta inclined to think there's just as much (if not more) potential for self-examination in looking at who we 'hate' ourselves, especially where that feeling is particularly strong. That ol' Jung "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves" chestnut.
    Yes, projection. There are some theories out there that we project our shadow onto others. Which is why, alot of times, emotions (& drama) bother me so...
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  5. #115
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    And this. I really had no idea what to make of most of this whole post, but if nothing else I may as well clarify that mostly I was hoping the ridiculous ‘burning suns’ exaggeration (had it done its job and been funny) would extinguish any drama by being so ‘over the top’ it would be making fun of unnecessary drama before it even happened. Clearly that didn’t work. ...

    If I really believed you hated us I wouldn’t have made the comment and I wouldn’t have brought your name up at all. I generally stay the hell away from people who clearly dislike me.
    I'd like to believe that's true. But my bullshit meter just had an epileptic fit.

    One thing that makes it hard to believe is that your whole argument boils down to "leave state alone, he's right about Salomé, she's evil and we know this from experience", from which the "she hates us with the power of a thousand suns" absurdity follows quite naturally. Unless your entire post was a joke? (Which, of course it is, in one sense.)

    I'm prepared to accept you were being hyperbolic, (in addition to completely wrong) but since when was the employment of hyperbole an effective means of defusing drama?

    I don't know which is more distasteful, your sad attack, or this sadder retraction...

    The irony is, that it is you who consistently disparage NTPs. Come to think of it, in all of our exchanges, it has been me, defending myself and/or my type against your ill-judged attacks.

    I suppose that's not so much ironic as entirely predictable...
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    We all have our own reasons for disliking others. I'm sorta inclined to think there's just as much (if not more) potential for self-examination in looking at who we 'hate' ourselves, especially where that feeling is particularly strong.
    Yes. Quite.

    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    I am probably going to regret writing this, however, I have to somewhat "take up" for the INFJ's in this case. Especially all IXXJ's.
    As an INTP, our dominant function is a judging one.
    Regret it because you are wrong? Quite possibly. Of course, you may not be INTP either. If you were, I suspect what I am about to say would be self-evident to you.

    It is wrong to categorise INTPs as Judgers. It is a fallacious misreading of the properties of type. One can only be J in relation to the world of external things. That's what it means! It means you extrovert your judging function.

    Ji is not like Je. To be Ji dominant is to turn one's judgement and critical faculty inward, while remaining open to new information and changeable circumstances. To be Je dominant is the opposite of that. Je uses judgement as a defence, Ji uses it to navigate, while always remembering that "the map is not the territory". Despite our interest in models, (or perhaps because of it) we do not as frequently fall victim to the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. (I use "we" loosely). We don't mistake our impressions for Truth.

    INTPs do not like premature closure or quick judgements. We like to keep doors open. We have feline instincts. If you close a door a cat will develop an insatiable curiosity to know what is on the other side. They do not like escape routes to be closed off. INTPs are the same. (It's why we often become hackers - we don't like closed doors and derive great satisfaction from opening them.) But. We are critical above all else. We do not accept anything on face value. Everything is subject to rigorous scrutiny and testing. That might look like being judgemental, it's not. It's kind of the opposite. It's because we do not trust judgement (our own or anyone else's) that we are so rigorous and strive to be so objective. All theories are speculative. All conclusions are tentative. All models are provisional. The only thing one can say with certainty is whether or not a system is internally consistent. So that is what we focus on. We often arrive at understanding via a process of elimination. And we do not try to impose (the working model of) our world view on anyone else.

    I do relate to a knee-jerk "No" response. That's not about being quick to judge either. I don't do this because I know immediately that I don't want something (I rarely know), I do it to allow myself the space to decide. It's about not wanting to be trapped by someone else's schedule. To say "yes" to one thing is to say "no" to everything else. It closes off other options. To reject it leaves the door open to revision, whilst not committing oneself to anything. I am unhappy to commit to future engagements, precisely because I want to remain open to changing circumstances. So again, your conclusion is based on a misunderstanding.

    Of course people are illogical. That's doesn't mean logic doesn't exist or cannot be employed by humans (with varying degrees of success).
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  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    I am probably going to regret writing this, however, I have to somewhat "take up" for the INFJ's in this case. Especially all IXXJ's.
    As an INTP, our dominant function is a judging one. IXXJ's on the other hand, not. Extroverted J's DO prematurely judge (IMO), but Introverted ones have perceiving dominant functions. I think this is where most of our (and these two) mis-communications arise. I have caught myself MANY times immediately saying NO to something my ISTJ friend, or INFJ mother have said b/c what they said did not fit in with my previous logical "truths" I had come to know. Granted, I don't like to say I know much, but some things, I see as obvious universal truths. (It isn't so always obvious to others, however.) As INTP's, we build our logic internally just like ENTJ's build their's externally. We are JUDGERS! I have discounted MANY things in my life b/c it didn't make sense. That even includes people.
    I am now 30, and over the last few years, I have come to the MOST logical conclusion. People are NOT logical. Logic has HUGE boundaries b/c of perception. That being said, I have been able to listen and be more open to things that seem "crazy," "illogical," "inconsistent," and etc. I have even been able to do so with an open mind, and EVEN sometimes have grown & realized that my perception caused me to come to an illogical conclusion! (which REALLY has blown my mind a few times...
    So, even though we are Perceivers, we are not necessarily always "open."

    So...yeah, we all think we are right. Whether J or P.

    I never understood when people call Ti a judging function. Same goes with Ne/Se. I presume, and Salome above me touches on this, people are are mistaken.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I never understood when people call Ti a judging function. Same goes with Ne/Se. I presume, and Salome above me touches on this, people are are mistaken.
    The definition of judging function is that it works with the data it has received. Ti is a judging function because it works with the data the extraverted perceiving function takes in and the introverted perceiving function stores. It does not apply that Ti is judgmental or anything else just that it does what the Ne/Se cannot, all Ne/Se can do is take in data while Ti does something with it. It's like a radio, it receives all the data from the broadcast which finds its way into the internal components however the radio itself needs to convert that data into a form where it can be understood, the broadcast data is useless on its own.

    Excuse my intrusion for I shall return to the shadows for now. With one exception, the INTP likes the INFJ only because of their inferior Fe and the INFJ only likes the INTP because of their tertiary Ti. That is the crux of the attraction, the realisation of common ground but one which allows for something to be learnt from the other. IMO it's doomed to failure if one or both parties become disillusioned with the desire to learn from the other which in itself is only in a very small area (which exhausts them after continuous use anyway.)

  8. #118
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'd like to believe that's true. But my bullshit meter just had an epileptic fit.
    Yeah, this seems to happen *a lot*. You have an exceptionally touchy “bullshit meter”, the accuracy of whether or not it’s responding to actual “bullshit” is largely questionable. <-I presume this has everything to do with why state made that initial 'why do always have to play a villian’ comment.

    I’d actually had a longer response to your post, but I decided it wasn’t worth getting into- because the direction conversations with you consistently go once you get offended is STRAIGHT downhill. You’re really insightful about a lot of things yet your inability (or unwillingness) to apply any of that insight to yourself is absolutely mind boggling at times.

    You can post this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You cannot know what it feels like from the inside. No matter how good you think your empathic skills are, you're kidding yourself. All you can be sure of is what it looks like to you. Anything else is sheer hubris. Why I keep coming back to this being some kind of projection, is because whenever people express a dogmatic opinion about your internal state that bears no relation to reality whatsoever, it usually is projection. Projection is, after all, the way we understand anything at all about what it is like to be human. The only way we can. Those of us humble enough to accept that not everyone sees the world the way we do, do not pretend to understand what's going on inside the hearts and minds of total strangers.

    And yet still post something like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Actually, his post didn't make me angry, despite how insulting and condescending it is. I like it when people express themselves in unconventional ways - even when they're way off-base.
    Yours does. It fucking blows my mind.

    It is both inaccurate AND irrational. It looks like prejudice because it IS prejudice. And here's how that happens: You get hold of the wrong idea based on a throwaway or impersonal remark which you wrongly interpret as personal criticism and which hurts your feelings. You're too aloof/proud/sure of yourself/ whatever to seek clarification, so you just fester in your misunderstanding. You've made your mind up about the person and from now on you will dismiss anything they say based on irrational personal dislike, rather than being able to examine it dispassionately, on its own merits. You will look for anything that backs up your prejudice and dismiss anything that doesn't, just to keep you secure in your judgement.
    So much for “those of us humble enough”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    How unlike you to be pretty sure of something you know fuck all about.
    I have had almost nothing to do with this character, other than complimenting his posts in rep (when I can steel myself to read/parse them.) What could he possibly hope to achieve by responding in that way? Do you think he's genuinely interested in understanding me, or do you think he just didn't want to miss the opportunity for a condescending reprimand? Be honest now.
    In two years of forum interaction with him and private convos on the side, I really honestly do not see him using cryptic language as some kind of ‘dominating tactic’- it’s a consequence of focusing on the particular content he does and making a priority of expressing that particular content, holding it at a higher priority than having a wider audience of people who understand him. When we change discourse to make our intended meaning more understandable to a wider audience, it necessarily loses something in translation- some people would rather lose audience than lose specificity of meaning. It is interesting though that you so clearly saw “didn’t want to miss the opportunity for a condescending reprimand” going on in someone else’s head [see above quote about “you cannot know what it feels like from the inside” and “whenever people express an opinion about your internal state that bears no relation to reality whatsoever, it usually is projection”].

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What. The. Fuck? Are you insane or just vindictive?
    I wonder why this thread didn't manage to "get filed" in your book of reckoning? What's that? Because it didn't reinforce your prejudice? Ah, yes, of course.

    FTR, INFJ women are the *only* group I have ever singled out for praise in that way. I still endorse those sentiments. However, you aren't perfect. And your judgments certainly are not, whatever you might want to believe. That's probably the biggest lesson for you to learn, and at least partially accounts for the range of differences fia observed.

    Actually I do remember that thread. I tried looking for it at some point to see if I was remembering correctly that you’d made it. You may make comments here and there in support of (like that thread), but you also regularly pepper your responses here and there with jabs. There are more jabs than not, which makes the comments in praise of seem like momentary lapses of appreciation in between the more regular experiences of annoyance. I really don’t understand how this could be news to you, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really don’t believe you dispatch knee-jerk jabs as often as you do (which would explain why the backlash for it seems to come from nowhere or that it’s “insane or just vindictive”).

    Honestly, the jabs are grating primarily because there’s some implied thoughtlessness in them, and what at times almost seems like willful misinterpretation of character. It goes beyond external observation, you ascribe disparaging motivations (which aren’t accurate). And often you throw in something like “par for the course with FJs” or “with INFJs”- and you do have a habit of spraying them regularly in various corners around the forum.


    In the end, it really doesn’t matter to me whether you believe I was only exaggerating to be funny- I felt the need to clarify because I was embarrassed someone misinterpreted my post in such a melodramatic way. People who have interacted with me enough (and who have the ability/willingness to let their experience of someone accumulate) know that sycophantic backpedaling isn’t my style.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #119
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    Regret it because you are wrong? Quite possibly. Of course, you may not be INTP either. If you were, I suspect what I am about to say would be self-evident to you.

    It is wrong to categorise INTPs as Judgers. It is a fallacious misreading of the properties of type. One can only be J in relation to the world of external things. That's what it means! It means you extrovert your judging function.

    Ji is not like Je. To be Ji dominant is to turn one's judgement and critical faculty inward, while remaining open to new information and changeable circumstances. To be Je dominant is the opposite of that. Je uses judgement as a defence, Ji uses it to navigate, while always remembering that "the map is not the territory". Despite our interest in models, (or perhaps because of it) we do not as frequently fall victim to the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. (I use "we" loosely). We don't mistake our impressions for Truth.

    INTPs do not like premature closure or quick judgements. We like to keep doors open. We have feline instincts. If you close a door a cat will develop an insatiable curiosity to know what is on the other side. They do not like escape routes to be closed off. INTPs are the same. (It's why we often become hackers - we don't like closed doors and derive great satisfaction from opening them.) But. We are critical above all else. We do not accept anything on face value. Everything is subject to rigorous scrutiny and testing. That might look like being judgemental, it's not. It's kind of the opposite. It's because we do not trust judgement (our own or anyone else's) that we are so rigorous and strive to be so objective. All theories are speculative. All conclusions are tentative. All models are provisional. The only thing one can say with certainty is whether or not a system is internally consistent. So that is what we focus on. We often arrive at understanding via a process of elimination. And we do not try to impose (the working model of) our world view on anyone else.

    I do relate to a knee-jerk "No" response. That's not about being quick to judge either. I don't do this because I know immediately that I don't want something (I rarely know), I do it to allow myself the space to decide. It's about not wanting to be trapped by someone else's schedule. To say "yes" to one thing is to say "no" to everything else. It closes off other options. To reject it leaves the door open to revision, whilst not committing oneself to anything. I am unhappy to commit to future engagements, precisely because I want to remain open to changing circumstances. So again, your conclusion is based on a misunderstanding.

    Of course people are illogical. That's doesn't mean logic doesn't exist or cannot be employed by humans (with varying degrees of success).
    We are not arguing the same point. You are also very unaware of your own closed-mindedness, as "Z Buck McFate" points out. You have judgements that make you prejudice, and you don't even realize this. ("Regret it because you are wrong? Quite possibly." - NO, you are NOT a judger, and NO, you DON'T make judgements...)

    The problem with us INTP's is that we also EXPERIENCE shit. Experience causes us to make logical judgements internally. If you hear something that sounds illogical, you will AUTOMATICALLY discount what you have heard. In this, we are just as closed as the "J's," just in a different way. That is the point I was making. The rest of your explanation about INTP's is pointless, b/c I know my type, and myself. I still stand by my previous statement, also, that IXXJ's are DOMINANT PERCEIVERS!!
    I know this (that we reject certain things immediately) b/c I do it, and have studied Jung/MBTI for about 6 years. FROM EXPERIENCE, I have come to recognize myself as INTP (although due to the "P" I double guessed myself for many years), and can recognize others types quite easily...yet at the same time...is this not putting myself & others "in a box," and making judgements?? Yes, I will make those judgements. Why? Because I am FASCINATED with figuring these systems out! Will I ever actually "figure them out?" Probably not. I don't believe I really can TRULY "know" anything. So, what's the point? Who fucking knows what the point to most everything in life (including life) is? (and, yes, I am INTP and ended that sentence w/ a preposition & AM LEAVING IT!)

    My main reason for regretting writing that is because I have spent years of reflection & trying to purge myself of ALL prejudice. Not everyone has done this, and is willing to admit the pitfalls of their own type. Sure, I WANT to be the most objective/logical, but I realize that as a human being this is impossible. In fact, have you ever realized that Ti is a subjective logic?? How illogical is that?
    I therefore am MORE open to listening to things. (Normally, I would listen to someone long enough to see if they knew what the hell they were talking about. Usually, I found them wanting & ignored them...see Dario Nardi's research)

    Finally, yes, I believe logic does it exist, but don't believe people can be FULLY logical. Yes, to a degree, but never fully. We have a VERY limited scope...
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  10. #120
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, this seems to happen *a lot*. You have an exceptionally touchy “bullshit meter”, the accuracy of whether or not it’s responding to actual “bullshit” is largely questionable. <-I presume this has everything to do with why state made that initial 'why do always have to play a villian’ comment.

    I’d actually had a longer response to your post, but I decided it wasn’t worth getting into- because the direction conversations with you consistently go once you get offended is STRAIGHT downhill.
    The conversation went downhill when state decided to attack me, don't go laying that at my door. 3 or 4 other people commented on state's bizarre musings, BEFORE I bothered to react. So, no, this isn't about me being overly touchy. Try harder.

    You’re really insightful about a lot of things yet your inability (or unwillingness) to apply any of that insight to yourself is absolutely mind boggling at times.
    No one can be as insightful about themselves as others. /insightful

    You can post this:

    And yet still post something like this:

    So much for “those of us humble enough”.
    There's no contradiction - in both cases I was pointing out common ways of failing to make accurate judgments/ slipping into cognitive bias.
    Do you disagree? I mean, none of this should be news to anyone...

    Actually I do remember that thread. I tried looking for it at some point to see if I was remembering correctly that you’d made it. You may make comments here and there in support of (like that thread), but you also regularly pepper your responses here and there with jabs. There are more jabs than not, which makes the comments in praise of seem like momentary lapses of appreciation in between the more regular experiences of annoyance.
    That was not a comment "here and there". It was a WHOLE FUCKING THREAD in praise of your type. I'm sorry, was I supposed to bump it every few months to make you feel properly appreciated? Fuck that. I'm INTP, if I say it once, it stands until I correct it. And the fact that you remembered my support, and yet chose to paint an entirely negative picture of me (which you know to be false) just reveals your true character to everyone. So thanks for that.

    Also, why is it that you think my comments about typical FJ behaviour (fuck, who'd expect to SEE such a thing on a TYPOLOGY forum. Oh the humanity!) are unconscionable and villainous, whereas your comments about NTPs are nothing of the sort? What was that about not being able to see the rafter in your own eye? What a fucking joke. I hope you benefit from my considerable insight in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    We are not arguing the same point. You are also very unaware of your own closed-mindedness, as "Z Buck McFate" points out. You have judgements that make you prejudice, and you don't even realize this. ("Regret it because you are wrong? Quite possibly." - NO, you are NOT a judger, and NO, you DON'T make judgements...)
    Sense of humour fail.
    I don't know quite what you are arguing about because most of it is incoherent, but it's a FACT that extroverted judgement and introverted judgment do not look the same and you are wrongly conflating the two. Others have already pointed out your error. If you are close-minded and can't listen to a correction of your misunderstanding, that's your misfortune. I don't need to waste more time on this.

    ...

    Let's get back to why INTPs and INFJs lurve each other so profoundly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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