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Thread: INTP+ENTJ

  1. #111
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savitri View Post
    I know. Get over it
    .


    Ah, not really. The Fi-doms in my life tend to like sharing their views, values, and opinions on a myriad of topics. It's great listening to them speak because you can tell they're so invested in it.

    As for Ti-doms you have to get pass their "another dumb bitch" pretense. I kid. The Ti-dom opened up when he knew he could trust me to judge things objectively without causing harm to his integrity. But I don't think this is limited to just INTPs.
    Can you give an example of this? Would that be like not talkign crap about another person that was close to you or something?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  2. #112
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    So if anyone's going to attack a Ti framework, they'd better have all their ducks, geese, chickens, carrier pigeons and dodo birds in order, prior to doing so.
    if you dont have all your ducks, geese, chickens, carrier pigeons and dodo birds in order, you are attacking against something that you dont understand, doing that is retarded and wont do any good. since your point of view would be lacking without all those birds and shit, your opinion is worthless to the debate and you will just annoy the shit out of any INTP trying to debate like that. its like trying to open too large screw with too little screw driver and not understanding why it wont open, even tho you have been told..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    if you dont have all your ducks, geese, chickens, carrier pigeons and dodo birds in order, you are attacking against something that you dont understand, doing that is retarded and wont do any good. since your point of view would be lacking without all those birds and shit, your opinion is worthless to the debate and you will just annoy the shit out of any INTP trying to debate like that. its like trying to open too large screw with too little screw driver and not understanding why it wont open, even tho you have been told..
    On the other hand, needlessly harping on details when the gist of the argument has been communicated is just as stupid (and annoying to us).

    We could sit around defining words all day (in law they call this the battle of the dictionaries), and perfectly enumerate every facet of the argument, but I would rather get the hell on with it already.

    The ENTJ is probably seven steps ahead and already tired of discussing some narrow definition that doesn't really effect one's understanding of the argument as a whole.

  4. #114
    Member Savitri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Can you give an example of this? Would that be like not talkign crap about another person that was close to you or something?
    More like, if he had a problem, I would acknowledge his barriers to attaining my suggested solution. Not everyone is capable of turning things around as quickly as I can nor do they have the means to do so in a timely manner. I gave him his space to pick and prod at my solution in a way that was not overstepping his boundaries. (Not bossing him around or giving him the "if you don't do this, you're going to be an idiot" speech. The latter is okay when it's emotionally light or trivial problems... )

    They need to know their competence isn't being questioned and that they'll arrive at an agreeable solution. I knew the guy for 7 years though and pretty much knew how he ticked. I'd imagine figuring out people's boundaries would be more difficult to ascertain when you've only known them for a few months. But I think as a general rule, they don't like their competence/ability to be questioned, I think it's an introvert thing
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  5. #115
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    On the other hand, needlessly harping on details when the gist of the argument has been communicated is just as stupid (and annoying to us).
    yes, and its equally annoying having to explain something multiple times, because some people are not being able to comprehend or care to understand the whole idea due to just picking up few key elements out of whats being said and forming some distorted image of them. you need to realize that this goes both ways, to us it seems stupid to do what i just said above and to you it seems stupid to actually understand something in deeper level, instead of just seeing few things that seem relevant to accomplish something. you see TiNe mindset wants to share understanding about something, not instructions on how you need to do something.

    after all arguments do come from misunderstandings, usually arguments with TJs seem to be(from my perspective ofc) them not understanding something, me trying to explain it, them getting annoyed cuz not understanding(or cuz details that explain something in more deeper level instead of just how to accomplish something), then them saying something irrelevant that has nothing to do with what im trying to say and being unable to explain how this what they say is relevant.

    We could sit around defining words all day (in law they call this the battle of the dictionaries), and perfectly enumerate every facet of the argument, but I would rather get the hell on with it already.
    if we dont share same definitions of words it will take all day to explain something simple. you see the complicated(to understand) words that often need to be defined have more information embedded to them than words like 'yes' or 'no', but defining for example the word 'differentation' when speaking about jungian psychology, we can replace at least 10-20 sentences just with that one word and still have the same understanding what the other person is communicating.

    The ENTJ is probably seven steps ahead and already tired of discussing some narrow definition that doesn't really effect one's understanding of the argument as a whole.
    its funny because often feel like its the other way around, TJs thinking they got it figured out, but having really subjective and distorted image of the matter at hand and not being able to incorporate those newly defined words in their subjective thoughts about the matter. its like their thinking gets too fixed in certain (highly subjective)ideas that its impossible to change it.

    its funny that i dont notice this with tert/inferior Te users at all, only in aux/dom Te users whos Te/Pi takes larger part of their ego. also, i didnt have this problem with my ISTJ friend, but have noticed it with ESTJs, ENTJs and INTJs, maybe more on the NTJs
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    yes, and its equally annoying having to explain something multiple times, because some people are not being able to comprehend or care to understand the whole idea due to just picking up few key elements out of whats being said and forming some distorted image of them. you need to realize that this goes both ways, to us it seems stupid to do what i just said above and to you it seems stupid to actually understand something in deeper level, instead of just seeing few things that seem relevant to accomplish something. you see TiNe mindset wants to share understanding about something, not instructions on how you need to do something.

    after all arguments do come from misunderstandings, usually arguments with TJs seem to be(from my perspective ofc) them not understanding something, me trying to explain it, them getting annoyed cuz not understanding(or cuz details that explain something in more deeper level instead of just how to accomplish something), then them saying something irrelevant that has nothing to do with what im trying to say and being unable to explain how this what they say is relevant.



    if we dont share same definitions of words it will take all day to explain something simple. you see the complicated(to understand) words that often need to be defined have more information embedded to them than words like 'yes' or 'no', but defining for example the word 'differentation' when speaking about jungian psychology, we can replace at least 10-20 sentences just with that one word and still have the same understanding what the other person is communicating.



    its funny because often feel like its the other way around, TJs thinking they got it figured out, but having really subjective and distorted image of the matter at hand and not being able to incorporate those newly defined words in their subjective thoughts about the matter. its like their thinking gets too fixed in certain (highly subjective)ideas that its impossible to change it.

    its funny that i dont notice this with tert/inferior Te users at all, only in aux/dom Te users whos Te/Pi takes larger part of their ego. also, i didnt have this problem with my ISTJ friend, but have noticed it with ESTJs, ENTJs and INTJs, maybe more on the NTJs
    We understand we just don't care.

  7. #117
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We understand we just don't care.
    my conclusion of not understanding comes from actions/words/etc that contradict understanding. if it was about caring and not about understanding, those actions/words/whatevers would not contradict any aspects of the model of understanding that i am offering, but would show in only implementing some aspects of what i said and some disregarding some things that seem irrelevant.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #118
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    A model of understanding that you created from your perspective.

    To us you don't understand.

    But trying to explain this is like trying to describe the color red to a blind man.

  9. #119
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A model of understanding that you created from your perspective.

    To us you don't understand.

    But trying to explain this is like trying to describe the color red to a blind man.
    hah, i knew you werent going to answer with quote or mention

    i know that its just my perspective, i never claimed otherwise. but you see, you do the typical TJ thing again, you just say im wrong and say something i know and something obvious and not explain yourself properly. i talk all these things about just picking up some key elements and drawing conclusions from them etc. you know REASONS for my thinking. you just say that this is my perspective and that i dont understand. if you think i dont understand something, explain to me what i dont understand, so that i can understand it. now usually the case is that the TJ is unable to explain or reason the thing i am supposedly not understanding. and more often than not, when they do try to explain, they just say something i said in different words, say something irrelevant and being unable to explain why it is relevant etc etc which clearly demonstrates that its them who do not understand, but think they understand. what makes this even more pronounced is the *see post #116*

    again this has gone the typical route, in order to continue i feel like i have to repeat myself, since you dont contribute anything new, basically just say that i dont understand from your perspective and you do and its pretty obvious that you feel that way, no need to say obvious things, tell me why, reason, say something that means something for the conversation, because if you dont, there is no reason for you to say anything.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #120
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    yes, and its equally annoying having to explain something multiple times, because some people are not being able to comprehend or care to understand the whole idea due to just picking up few key elements out of whats being said and forming some distorted image of them. you need to realize that this goes both ways, to us it seems stupid to do what i just said above and to you it seems stupid to actually understand something in deeper level, instead of just seeing few things that seem relevant to accomplish something. you see TiNe mindset wants to share understanding about something, not instructions on how you need to do something.

    after all arguments do come from misunderstandings, usually arguments with TJs seem to be(from my perspective ofc) them not understanding something, me trying to explain it, them getting annoyed cuz not understanding(or cuz details that explain something in more deeper level instead of just how to accomplish something), then them saying something irrelevant that has nothing to do with what im trying to say and being unable to explain how this what they say is relevant.

    I love this! this is what I have been looking for! I actually understand an INTP's point of view! woohoo!!!
    This might sound stupid but can you give a more specific example than what you already have ie a specific convo other than this one on a different subject or something????



    if we dont share same definitions of words it will take all day to explain something simple. you see the complicated(to understand) words that often need to be defined have more information embedded to them than words like 'yes' or 'no', but defining for example the word 'differentation' when speaking about jungian psychology, we can replace at least 10-20 sentences just with that one word and still have the same understanding what the other person is communicating.

    I agree, misunderstandings of two people's definitions is bad...I often have to drag the other person's definition out of them to understand where the difference in opinion is.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We understand we just don't care.
    Can be true, we may understand the idea and all of it's aspects it's just not worth it to care about...and i think a lot of that has to do with Te with Se they like action.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A model of understanding that you created from your perspective.

    To us you don't understand.

    But trying to explain this is like trying to describe the color red to a blind man.
    That's definately what it feels like sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    hah, i knew you werent going to answer with quote or mention

    i know that its just my perspective, i never claimed otherwise. but you see, you do the typical TJ thing again, you just say im wrong and say something i know and something obvious and not explain yourself properly. i talk all these things about just picking up some key elements and drawing conclusions from them etc. you know REASONS for my thinking. you just say that this is my perspective and that i dont understand. if you think i dont understand something, explain to me what i dont understand, so that i can understand it. now usually the case is that the TJ is unable to explain or reason the thing i am supposedly not understanding. and more often than not, when they do try to explain, they just say something i said in different words, say something irrelevant and being unable to explain why it is relevant etc etc which clearly demonstrates that its them who do not understand, but think they understand. what makes this even more pronounced is the *see post #116*

    again this has gone the typical route, in order to continue i feel like i have to repeat myself, since you dont contribute anything new, basically just say that i dont understand from your perspective and you do and its pretty obvious that you feel that way, no need to say obvious things, tell me why, reason, say something that means something for the conversation, because if you dont, there is no reason for you to say anything.
    In referece to bold: Are you sure it's just a TJ thing other than istj...what i really mean is have you gone in this specific "route" before with an estj? cause i think they are very detailed...i could be wrong.

    First I'd like to say that find it difficult to explain myself because I feel like i'm stating the obvious and I think my Fe can be hyperactive...so I hate being corny or stating the obvious in front of other people. What i'm really getting at though is Ni. This sounds like Ni....intp's are always talking about relevance...actually it could just be Ti in general. Either way I find that a bit odd because why would I take time to talk to you about something if it's irrelevant...i guess that just makes me annoyed a little...deciding what's relevant or not...as if the thought doesn't matter....and when my thought is questioned like that ...no I may not have prepared response because Ni is giving me the thought. I don't know how to translate it myself let alone translate it to you. I think we do understand because of Ni, just don't know how to explain why ...At least that is how it is for me...I love Ni but not when i'm debating...unless i've done it repeatedly before and know my response and have sifted through my Ni to get the real explaination. And then when you bring the word relevance back into the equation, Ni is constantly connecting the dots....so how is something not relevant when it came from another thought...i don't think i like that term ha ha.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

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