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Thread: NTs and Drama

  1. #21
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post

    When an iNTj starts to drama, you are about to be babtalized, you are the one who is granted to finally have a little bit of insight into a genious self, who is at this point ( when this point is ever reached) calling for just a little, a very little, yes.
    When an INTJ gets dramatic, you've managed to penetrate the thin outer layer of perceived sanity and competence they carry. They tend to protect this layer with their life. At that point, I'm not sure if you should get a medal for doing the extremely difficult or a kick in the pants for being a bastard.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #22
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
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    @entropie: Yeah, I forgot you, but that was more because I'm on a computer that doesn't have access to videos than anything else. Should I get home internet back, I'll have more to say in response to those. As for drama differences, Haphazard is correct about the INTJs. For ENTJs, I have a teacher who is one and he doesn't seem all that dramatic, but like you I'm no expert in that type besides that one example. About the XNTPs, they do seem more apt to be involved in it that XNTJs. The fact that I never considered the J/P differences in that is astonishing, to tell you the truth.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I liked this. Please expand all ideas further. (Seriously.)
    @UHN: Ha, I forgot I had posted this...

    To expand on the ideas

    People are not only different in personality and makeup, but also in life experience and context. What might be very minor if it happened to one person could be emotionally catastrophic to another person. (For example, a spouse not bothering to call the other when she's held up at work or forgetting about a potential dinner arrangement with hubby and being two hours later with her explanation is not a HUGE deal to most people if it doesn't happen much, stuff happens in life... but it might be a catastrophe if the other spouse had grown up in a house where the parents constantly were failing to fulfill expectations/promises.) There are zillions of other examples that could be thought of. So in this case I would say the wife reasonably expects this to be "no big deal" but the hubby reasonably takes it really hard -- both are right.

    Or what if one spouse takes practical family obligations very seriously, while another might internally respect them but not see the big deal in, let us say, not going to the in-laws for Memorial Day? If the first spouse sees that action as a necessary part of showing one loves their family -- attending family events -- while the other spouse is more personal and less regimented in their approach to family relationships, well, both of them could be JUST as committed to family in intention but the first could cause unnecessary drama if the other spouse seems to blow off the event, while the second spouse might blow the family obligation into some massive act of 'enslavement'. Lots of drama. And to one person it's warranted, although the situation is actually on the large scale of things not that big a deal.

    Moving to the abstract vs. concrete: Tangible people tend to need tangible signs of commitment, obligation, activity, or whatever else. Those things become read as intention and motivation. Abstract people tend to see symbols and signs ... someone doesn't literally have to do something, nothing has to be specifically manifest, as long as the signs can be read to show good intention and commitment on the part of the other person. So again, what a person does or does NOT do, if the two people differ on this, can sometimes seem very large to the other.

    More simple examples: Remember the NYC employee who got fired for being seen playing Solitaire on his computer during his break, a few years ago, when the mayor happened to come through? The young man saw it as his break, he was allowed to play (technically), no big deal... but to the mayor, it was representative of his work ethic and it became a media drama unnecessarily. The young man lost his job, unfortunately, but also acclaimed a bit of notoriety for his part in the unnecessary drama.

    (And the mayor might have been over the top in general.... but then again, the press was coming through, there is an underlying context of political figures being challenged on the efficiency/professionalism of their office, etc. So in THAT context, the response might see less inappropriate; the young man failed to recognize the mayor's probable reaction and paid for it.)

    As far as people using drama to influence:
    - Talk Show Hosts (e.g., Oprah Winfrey).
    - Televangelists.
    - Political candidates for office.
    - Company CEOs.
    - Fiction writers
    etc.

    All of these people excel at taking mundane facts and shaping an engaging narrative out of them, to motivate or entertain people. Without the shaping, the events or the life being discussed might seem rather run-of-the-mill... but the shaping puts the event into a new context that adds dramatic arc and makes it relevant in some way to the listener. And we all know some people who are skeptical of these sorts of people, can just shrug off the offered narrative, don't much enjoy dramatic arc in their fiction, etc.

    [Note: This is what I do in my blog. To some people, I think it might seem like unnecessary drama, taking events and blowing them out of proportion. To others, they can relate to the narrative and concepts I am emphasizing because it's similar to theirs in some way... hence not overly dramatic. I see both sides.]

    In regards to function use:

    - T's deconstruct and depersonalize. They tend to break things down into their component parts. They take stories, note the concepts and facts, then rubber-stamp or challenge them. S's can do this too, they're interested in the tangible ramfications and how things have seemed to "fit" in the past.
    - F's tend to personalize and connect in some way with the narrator, while N's tend to construct and link things together or find bonds.

    The most obvious way to highlight the differences I can think of right now is to suggest imagining two architects -- one an ST, the other an NF -- assigned to design a particular house without any particular parameters in mind. I am better they will look VERY different and try to fulfill different end goals. And the NF house will tend to evoke more drama or aura, the ST house will probably have more functional and utility ends in mind.

    @Aer: <BIG FLAG WAVE>
    Actually, no biggie... but you DID say to wave the flag!

    @entropie: Can you please clarify whether your type codes are referring to MBTI or to Socionics? (You used Socionics notation.) It makes a big difference in how I understand your post, specifically because it exchanges INTP and INTJ. Thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    As for what I've done to change things, I've asked her if she'd rather me blindly agree with her in these situations, but she keeps saying that she asks for my opinion because she wants it. So now I'm at a standstill. Either I continue giving my opinion, which she'll pick out a word or two from whatever I say and extrapolate meaning from that to justify what I "truly feel" about her and the situation, or I refuse and she gets angry that I'm doing nothing to help her, which she'll take to mean that she was right all along about me being too emotionless to care about her. Go figure.
    1) That's not necessarily a T vs. F (or NT vs SF) transaction. My wife and I (both INFPs) get into this transaction occasionally.

    2) The way you describe it, you seem to see the transaction this way: She presents you with a problem, you give her your read-out, and at that point the transaction should come to an end (i.e., she should accept your read-out without comment). However, she may see it differently. She may see the transaction this way: She presents you with a problem, you give her your read-out, she provides push-back to test your read-out, and you get defensive and rigid in insisting that your read-out should be the final word (and hence you become the drama queen, not her--see Haphazard's post #21).

    My suggestion (based on my experiences from item #1): Work toward a little compromise in expression. That is, when you provide your read-out and she provides push-back, you could realize that she is stressed and you could react appropriately to reduce her stress (instead of you becoming stressed in reaction). For example, you could back up a step or two and provide some affirmation for her situation as presented to you initially ("You were right to get upset about this issue--it's good that you're standing up for yourself"); then ask her where she wants to go from there ("When I gave you my read-out, I was suggesting a path for movement forward; but maybe it's better to ask you what you want to achieve at this point."). "Handling" her in this manner will help defuse the "drama" and will probably allow you to subsequently re-assert your original read-out but in an environment of reduced stress.

    Of course, an INTJ will likely respond: "Why should I have to go through that charade just to present her with a simple answer; why put up with all the drama?" But remember item #2: Drama goes both ways. An INTJ insisting that there's only one answer to all life's situations and then getting stressed out and insistent about it is kind of dramatic too. A little compromise goes a long way toward reducing drama on both sides.

    Just my NF-based 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think drama is in the eye of the beholder.

    What is important to one seems less important to another. Sometimes this is due to a difference in priorities and perspective, other times it's due to EITHER person not really having a true sense of how the other is impacted (or not) by the situation... [rest of post]
    Brilliant analysis. Covers all the angles very concisely. Nice!

  6. #26
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Well, I have to think about something more dramatic next time xD.

    @haphazard: would could my arm off, before it comes that far.

    @Jennifer: What is Socionics ?

    With eNTp drama is clearily a flaw in personality. But like it is with every flaws, they can become roots and make beautiful plants. Like fueling conversations or keeping the spirit alive ! xD
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #27
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Well, I have to think about something more dramatic next time xD.

    @haphazard: would could my arm off, before it comes that far.

    @Jennifer: What is Socionics ?

    With eNTp drama is clearily a flaw in personality. But like it is with every flaws, they can become roots and make beautiful plants. Like fueling conversations or keeping the spirit alive ! xD
    You've been drinking!

  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    psst
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #29
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Drama's a bit of a small annoyance though people generally seem not to bother me with it since they seem to realize that (1) I'm rarely ever serious in the first place so it becomes a lost cause and (2) that if I am, I'm far to much of logical robot to feel anything from it. But I agree with Jennifer; the importance of drama's focus is generally fairly subjective and as long as the person doesn't bring me into it then I really don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    When an eNTj is dramatazing, I guess I dont know what happens then. I dont know nothing about eNTj's and I promised to read that long analysis posted in this forum. After that I maybe can say something about that. I think eNTj's are the drama queens. Intuitively spoken.
    Not really. On the rare occasion that I actually get into a dramatic confrontation I tend to stick to my logical facts and figures for as long as possible. Then if they fail to listen to these I'll call them out on that fact and question whether they even care about my opinion at all. This usually turns the tables and makes them look like the bad guy. I can definitely imagine many NTs with undeveloped feeling functions not knowing how to react to these confrontations though. Emotions typically aren't the Rational's domain.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    @Jennifer: What is Socionics ?
    I guess that answers my question.

    You don't need to understand the system, but you should know that when you use all caps for the first three letters of the type and then lc the fourth letter, that's standard Socionics convention. (As much as Socionics is standardized anyway.) So you were talking about MBTI-style theory using Socionics notation, which was confusing.

    The problem is that a main chunk of Socionics disagrees with the MBTI convention of using the J/P to describe the EXTROVERTED function. (For example, an INTP in the MBTI extroverts a perceiving function, Ne, as its secondary function... so it's called "INTP" rather than "INTJ." Socionics thinks this does not make sense, because an INTP is led by a judging function, Ti -- so it labels INTPs as INTj instead.) All the introverted types, which have J/P describing their SECONDARY function, are flipped around in Socionics.

    So when you talk about INFj or ISTp, for example, it's unclear whether you mean MBTI INFJ and ISTP vs MBTI INFP and ISTJ.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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