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  1. #41
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes, but it runs counter to how an INTJ operates.
    Yes, I agree - but, here's the thing, let's say being decisive is counter to my nature - or being conclusive, and appearing confident with that yet forging ahead. But, I still do it, even if it rubs against my nature, even kind of a "fake it 'til you make it" decisiveness sometimes! I know my face can portray a certain picture of confidence or lack thereof, so I try to put forward the most relevant and appealing portrait according to the situation.

    So, perhaps a better rephrase of my question is:

    Would an INTJ "fake" indecision if the situation so warranted that they should not appear so decided? Does an INTJ even have an awareness that a situation could benefit from that, or that they should sometimes let others take the reins of decision?

    Do any INTJ's do that?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #42
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    What about people who don't ... operate ... that way, for lack of a better word. I don't believe I have a process that, upon starting a new role or receipt of new information, requires me to tear down a worldview and build it back up.

    I feel I am adding utility all of the time to this giant web, and the web doesn't necessarily need to be started over again even with changes in subject or even major paradigm shifts in my understanding.

    How does that reconcile with your thoughts?
    Basically I look for an attitude of humility and openness, and even if someone's boldly representing themselves I think that attitude is visible.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  3. #43
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Would an INTJ "fake" indecision if the situation so warranted that they should not appear so decided? Does an INTJ even have an awareness that a situation could benefit from that, or that they should sometimes let others take the reins of decision?

    Do any INTJ's do that?
    Faking anything goes against the grain for most of us, unless we are being deliberately manipulative because more direct approaches have failed. I cannot imagine a situation in which feigned indecisiveness is a benefit. The honest and respectful thing to do is to explain the limits of one's certainty, and to ask directly for alternative views and input. Other people, for their part, need to take us at face value when we ask for this input, and give it their best shot. There is no point in telling me I am wrong about something. If you can show me I am wrong, however, I will listen and make adjustments (and respect you for it).

    Letting others take the reins in decision making is another matter entirely. I do this for many reasons: (1) the person has more expertise than I in the subject area; (2) the person has adequate expertise and a larger stake in the outcome, or just more time to deal with it; (3) the person is new/learning and needs the experience. Of course, there is also (4) in which I am giving someone the reins so they can publicly drive the wagon off the cliff (giving them enough rope to hang themselves), though I try to halt the wagon at the last minute, or at least minimize collateral damage when possible.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, perhaps a better rephrase of my question is:

    Would an INTJ "fake" indecision if the situation so warranted that they should not appear so decided? Does an INTJ even have an awareness that a situation could benefit from that, or that they should sometimes let others take the reins of decision?

    Do any INTJ's do that?
    Yes, I attempt to do something like this, but, tbh, it's a little different than what you suggest.

    It's hard for me to truly fake something, and I don't like lying, so what I try to do instead is keep my mind open to alternate possibilities, even if I believe the one I'm working with is actually better than the other one(s) proposed. By at least keeping my mind open to these other possibilities, even if they have no more than a 1% chance of actually being worthwhile, I can treat the holder of this perspective like I'm giving their idea/opinion/belief due credit (which, frankly, I am). I will try do this by explaining to the person, rather in depth (and preferably one-on-one), that we will remain open to the possibility that what they are saying is true, and allow future information to dictate our moves, but that, at the present moment, due to reasons x, y, and z, we will be moving forward with option 1, as opposed to their option. If their option is indeed better, though, then we'll just move forward with that one.

    I think this has to do with incorporating usage of Ne and/or Se into our cognition (to counterbalance/"open up" our Ni).

  5. #45
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, perhaps a better rephrase of my question is:

    Would an INTJ "fake" indecision if the situation so warranted that they should not appear so decided? Does an INTJ even have an awareness that a situation could benefit from that, or that they should sometimes let others take the reins of decision?

    Do any INTJ's do that?
    There are two things that I do. First, as an Enneagram 6, I do tend to ask for and take into account others' opinions naturally because I'm looking for validation or invalidation of things that I'm thinking. Also, after years of having difficulties convincing others that my point of view was right (and sometimes realizing I was wrong), I've adopted a less definitive or "absolute" way of communicating. This quote from Benjamin Franklin captures some bit of what I'm talking about:

    “When another asserted something that I thought [an] error, I deny'd myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing immediately some absurdity in his proposition: and in answering I began observing that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion would be right, but in the present case there appear'd or seem'd to me some difference, etc. I soon found the advantage of this change in my manner; the conversations I engag'd in went on more pleasantly. The modest way in which I propos'd my opinions procur'd them a readier reception and less contradiction; I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more easily prevail'd with others to give up their mistakes and join with me when I happened to be in the right.”

    It's a balance. I believe I've gone too far in this direction in an effort to build consensus while in leadership roles. It's something that I continue to work on refining.

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  6. #46
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Would an INTJ "fake" indecision if the situation so warranted that they should not appear so decided?
    Such a ploy amounts in the terms of my operation to denying information or opportunity to another person. It happens mostly when I don't care to have them be part of what I'm doing.

    Interim decision-making done well creates space for independent conceptualization and pragmatic action. It's not delaying a decision that helps an INTJ move forward, it's the making of some decision, taking the action it entails, and seeing what happens. This provides new information and changes our points of view.

    So... what's a good time to pretend you don't function as you do? Seems like pretty much only the times you don't care or the times some circumstantially influential person requires some other process and will lose their tiny minds and threaten your position if you demur.



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  7. #47
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    I'm late to this conversation but will add my 2 cents worth anyway. I have only two pidgeon holes...

    Person who's behaviour I can reasonably predict
    Person who's behaviour I can't reasonably predict

    The latter. I will go through the motions of social conventions but I will divulge nothing of any consequence to them since I do not know what they will do with it. These people find me somewhat hollow and aloof beause I keep my interactions with them to a minimum and at a banal level.

    With the former I may divulge either truthful or bogus information about myself depending on whether I think that person is either good or bad news for me. Someone who dislikes you is not necessarily a bAd thing, they can prove useful if you are reasonably sure of what they will do with what you tell them. Its also fun on a level to rile those people up by being their constant source of irritation.

  8. #48
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    Oh fuck yes, it's the stupidest thing I've ever possibly witnessed from an intelligent individual. I have had someone personally, at close range, as an INTJ pigeon-hole me like this.

    It turned me against them, for the most part, combined with random stupid arguments on the Internet with immature INTJs on forums, despite the magnificent presence of my INTJ math professor from college.

    It's really sad, because IRL they're few and far between, but you give one a chance and they categorize you far too quickly, it's absurd.

    I'm not a fan. STJs do nothing like this, I don't know why anyone complains about them in comparison, I actually prefer them.

    ENTJs are still okay, though. Maybe it's the tertiary access to Se impulses.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Would an INTJ "fake" indecision if the situation so warranted that they should not appear so decided? Does an INTJ even have an awareness that a situation could benefit from that, or that they should sometimes let others take the reins of decision?

    Do any INTJ's do that?
    Not for me. I have learnt (from my life experience) that indecisveness is a sign of weakness that others will take advantage of immediately and to my detriment. It is better for me to make a decision and revise it later on than to appear indecisive in the moment and allow another to step into the resultant void. So saying that if the issue is one that is less important to me or one where I do not care to shoulder the burden of decision-making then sure I'll just keep quiet and wait for the decision-maker to emerge. Mostly things that directly affect my personal life experience aren't decisions I'm likely to abdicate from. If it's a work thing and I'm not directly accountable for the decision that results I'll defer to the best talent. But I would never do so by pretending to be indecisive. I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that's who I am. No matter what I am doing things on purpose and as a result of a process, not because I can't come to a conclusion on my own.

    Leaving things open-ended or even appearing open ended is like anathema to me. To the point where I broke off an engagement merely because I could not handle the P-ness of my partner. Loved him dearly but felt like I was on eggshells due to his whimsical and changable nature. The certainty of it being over
    was like sweet surrender compared to the horror of things hanging in the balance. Yes I am highly J.
    Last edited by WhoCares; 07-30-2012 at 04:11 AM. Reason: Clarity

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Not for me. I have learnt (from my life experience) that indecisveness is a sign of weakness that others will take advantage of immediately and to my detriment. It is better for me to make a decision and revise it later on than to appear indecisive in the moment and allow another to step into the resultant void.

    Leaving things open-ended or even appearing open ended is like anathema to me. To the point where I broke off an engagement merely because I could not handle the P-ness of my partner. Loved him dearly but felt like I was on eggshells due to his whimsical and changable nature. The certainty of it being over
    was like sweet surrender compared to the horror of things hanging in the balance. Yes I am highly J.
    I do think it's a perception. As an (E?I?) SFP I feel that the ultimate wrong is to be too decisive about anyone, even if you fight with them, even if they do naughty things; in fact I've made dear friends of people who pissed me off at one point.

    So to an INTJ this probably looks stupid; but to me the opposite looks stupid: writing off people before you properly give them a chance. It's like a putting a book down when you only read 20 pages and it has 250.

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