[INTJ] The INTJ "Doorslam" aka INTJ Pigeonholing

[Thalassa]

Ive had the 'you are weird' stamp on my forehead before. And it is really hard to remove. Takes a lot of one on one time with the ISTJ. And even then. They remember their first impression well. INTJs usually have a lousy memory and I love using that against them

As for reclassification..you are a complex human being. Even if the INTJ believes they can trust their Ni to grasp the essence and reduce you to two sentences (which, admittedly, they rule at with just about everything else). Two sentences, as handy as it is to file away and use as a recap, do not do a person justice imo. So..show them what they have missed in their first cataloguing attempt. And make sure you hold some back, so you can do it over..and over..and over again

But with an ISTJ you can be simultaneously weird and loved. I honestly think their judgments are a lot more realistic: like, okay, you're human, I expect you to do this, I'm above it, but because you are a person (male or female, insert SJ cultural gender role) you will do this, head pat. With an INTJ, I might actually feel...like they're disgusted with me. Like they actually think they aren't like me or I should be better somehow.

Maybe all the ISTJs I've been close to have higher Fi, and the ISTJs I've known with lower Fi I've managed to avoid in a personal context. In fact, I'm pretty sure I know this old guy who is an ISTJ who does totally nice things for me all the time, like it's his job or something, because he's old and he thinks that's how old men are supposed to be, and it's his duty, and he feels fantastic about being helpful.

I always felt that way about my grandfather, like he felt really fantastic about his ability to provide or protect or whatever, like he gloated about it, like when he said "no reason to thank me" he really fucking meant it, he got something out of it, made him feel powerful.

ISTJs have never actually hated or judged me that I've noticed, when they have, they've been so unimportant I just ignored them. I hardly even notice INTJs IRL, but when I have, I've done most of the work in the beginning I've noticed, and I'm not so sure I like that. I feel like I've been very very coldly judged by an INTJ and it's a hard thing to shake, and one of the things that makes it easier is an ISTJ saying to me "he's a nasty immoral person, anyway."

Maybe I need too much reassurance to ever be happy around an INTJ. I can tell you I find some of them on-line VERY amusing, but ISTJs can also be quite amusing.

The dynamic is all wrong for me, I'm pretty sure. I always get the feeling I'm nice but don't especially matter, or don't matter at all.

 

[Amargith]

You don't matter. Not at first. I find that sort of amusing really, and have noticed that they will in fact change their position rather radically if need be in the future. But the INTJ is at that point neutral towards you, not hot or cold. They just have other things on their minds.

With ISTJs..because they notice *every* little detail, I kind of feel watched. I used to work at a place where there were only SJs. ESTJ, ISTJ, ESFJ. The ISTJS had seen everything weird I did and recorded it. And didn't share that they recorded it. I just found out later when they used it either against me or to ask me questions. They also had the hardest time getting around my weirdness, where the ESTJ just went 'ok you are weird, but you do your job and that works for me'. The ISTJ had the hardest time getting past the fact that I did things...well differently than them. They were nice and polite and all..but they kept their distance, like I was contagious or something. And every time they said something about how things are supposed to be and laughed at someone who hadn't followed procedure they would awkwardly look at me and remember that 'oh right..you do that that way as well. Hmmm.'

INTJs don't care about you being alien. In fact, that is probably a reason to create a new category, so investigation is warranted
Sure, they ignore you at first. Consider it their loss. In time they tend to realize their mistake all too often. And at that point, it is quite funny to watch them work out how to get *your* attention now.

 

[Thalassa]

You don't matter. Not at first. I find that sort of amusing really, and have noticed that they will in fact change their position rather radically if need be in the future. But the INTJ is at that point neutral towards you, not hot or cold. They just have other things on their minds.

With ISTJs..because they notice *every* little detail, I kind of feel watched. I used to work at a place where there were only SJs. ESTJ, ISTJ, ESFJ. The ISTJS had seen everything weird I did and recorded it. And didn't share that they recorded it. I just found out later when they used it either against me or to ask me questions. They also had the hardest time getting around my weirdness, where the ESTJ just went 'ok you are weird, but you do your job and that works for me'. The ISTJ had the hardest time getting past the fact that I did things...well differently than them. They were nice and polite and all..but they kept their distance, like I was contagious or something. And every time they said something about how things are supposed to be and laughed at someone who hadn't followed procedure they would awkwardly look at me and remember that 'oh right..you do that that way as well. Hmmm.'

I've had a male ISTJ spend every day with me for a year, nearly all day long, and I was stunned and floored and flattered to have a very smart ISTJ female tell me that I reminded her a lot of herself, except that I expressed it and she kept it inside.

I also like the observations my ESFJ friends have made about me. Like my ESFJ female friend says I'm subtly sexy like her daughter, and how cool she thinks that is, and she can describe it, that she likes that I'm not over-the-top or in your face, but seem unaware of my sexuality, though it's extremely present, like a humble obliviousness to something very obvious. My ESFJ ex could cut me to pieces with what he noticed, oh my god he saw EVERYTHING, how I walked, everything...but that meant that he noticed exactly what was important and admirable and desirable about me too, and it made me feel very singled out and special.

SJs make me feel different I think than they make some people feel. I also know so many that I separate bad/stupid SJs from wonderful/smart SJs and can classify them pretty easily without stereotypes.

INTJs don't care about you being alien. In fact, that is probably a reason to create a new category, so investigation is warranted
Sure, they ignore you at first. Consider it their loss. In time they tend to realize their mistake all too often. And at that point, it is quite funny to watch them work out how to get *your* attention now.

Yeah well when one works incredibly hard to get my attention like an ISTJ or two has, then I'll probably soften towards them, but my experience really hasn't been as good as I hoped it would be at all.

 

[Amargith]

I've had a male ISTJ spend every day with me for a year, nearly all day long, and I was stunned and floored and flattered to have a very smart ISTJ female tell me that I reminded her a lot of herself, except that I expressed it and she kept it inside.

I also like the observations my ESFJ friends have made about me. Like my ESFJ female friend says I'm subtly sexy like her daughter, and how cool she thinks that is, and she can describe it, that she likes that I'm not over-the-top or in your face, but seem unaware of my sexuality, though it's extremely present, like a humble obliviousness to something very obvious. My ESFJ ex could cut me to pieces with what he noticed, oh my god he saw EVERYTHING, how I walked, everything...but that meant that he noticed exactly what was important and admirable and desirable about me too, and it made me feel very singled out and special.

SJs make me feel different I think than they make some people feel. I also know so many that I separate bad/stupid SJs from wonderful/smart SJs and can classify them pretty easily without stereotypes.





Yeah well when one works incredibly hard to get my attention like an ISTJ or two has, then I'll probably soften towards them, but my experience really hasn't been as good as I hoped it would be at all.

Granted, Ive had one ISTJ from that firm confide in me that she felt the way I was inside, but would never share that with anyone
That was really sweet of her. I think the difference is perhaps past baggage. I grew up being over scrutinized and when I feel watched..I feel judged, in a way. I have stage fright for the same reason. Whereas you associate that kind of intense attention to detail about your person with love and warmth. INTJs are capable of that for sure, but they do it at a later stage in the game. For me, that is a good thing as by then I know them a bit better and understand where their judgement and focus comes from, and their attention is very much welcome, whereas for you, the absence of it in the early stages seems to signal a type of..disrespect?

 

[Thalassa]

Granted, Ive had one ISTJ from that firm confide in me that she felt the way I was inside, but would never share that with anyone
That was really sweet of her. I think the difference is perhaps past baggage. I grew up being over scrutinized and when I feel watched..I feel judged, in a way. I have stage fright for the same reason. Whereas you associate that kind of intense attention to detail about your person with love and warmth. INTJs are capable of that for sure, but they do it at a later stage in the game. For me, that is a good thing as by then I know them a bit better and understand where their judgement and focus comes from, and their attention is very much welcome, whereas for you, the absence of it in the early stages seems to signal a type of..disrespect?

Even though my grandfather's ESTJ wife was an asshole, it wasn't personal, she was an asshole, and I realized later in life that the scrutiny I experienced under SJs was mostly inconvenient to my lounging or being, and that if it had just been me and ISTJ grandpa we would have been fine (which is why I think I could marry an ISxJ) but that the ESTJ was always LOOKING AT ME. That was both positive and negative. She bought me flashy clothes and made sure I had what was current and stylish and that I woke up for school and that I did well in school, and she was a constant....hawkish??? ..presence of Te in my life...pushing me ever onward, sometimes in a positive way, sometimes in a negative way, with occasional Ne dancing (literally, dancing, we used to do 50's dances together, it's one of the primary things I loved about her) ...but yeah her scrutiny was evil and overbearing at times, especially when I got older...but when I was a child it was encouraging and frankly benefitted me in terms of material possessions and achievements, she made sure I had everything that looked good and did well, much more than my grandfather ever did, in his attempts to educate me soundly and push me to be a success, he never had her taste and flair for outdoing the neighborhood kids and keeping up with the Joneses. This was cool when I was 8; it was horrible when I was 15.

But yeah when anyone ignores me I take it as disrespect, and my non-personage at any stage I find offensive.

"Love me, hate me, but spare me your indifference."

I was made to be noticed by SJs and their keen, detailed eyes.

 

[Amargith]

But yeah when anyone ignores me I take it as disrespect, and my non-personage at any stage I find offensive.

"Love me, hate me, but spare me your indifference."

I was made to be noticed by SJs and their keen, detailed eyes.

Yeah, being scrutinized never got me anything but a low confidence, so I don't particularly get warm and fuzzy when I feel that is going on.

As for the disrespect...in their defense, I doubt they mean disrespect. It is just not their natural way of operating in this world (and feel free to correct me here INTJS). They tend to not be focused on details or on people, at least not at first glance. Its what makes them great at what they do. It takes them conscious effort to unwind, take a breath from conquering and organizing the world, in order for them to take an interest in people (I'm overdoing it a bit, but you get what I mean). So..it is nothing personal. I find that mine, in fact, when he takes a breath from his world-conquering, actively looks for entertainment, drama and ...well people who provide it. And then they are very open and appreciative to what you have to offer, even more so if you drag them along in the craziness It is just catching them in that moment that isn't always easy

 

[RDF]

Jumping in here late. (I did skim the thread.)

Personally I don't mind when INTJs pigeonhole me. In fact I kind of like it; when done well, it's incredibly efficient. The INTJ quickly constructs a bridge across which we can start interacting almost immediately. It's almost like an investment of faith on their part: "Okay, at least for now, we can trust each other on these things." In that sense, it's better than having to maneuver around socially and build familiarity slowly with other types.

And then if I want to be considered for other roles, I just appeal to their Te, IOW, I demonstrate to them that it's just good organization to let me take the lead in other areas. After being in the military I have a pretty good understanding of Te, and it's a good device or platform for parceling out and trying out new roles and building new bridges of trust.

I would agree, though, that it's probably not good to use a lot of Ne on INTJs to avoid pigeonholing. Ne grates on non-Ne-users the same way that any other function can grate on non-users of that function. It can come off as dippy or flighty and untrustworthy.

 

[Thalassa]

All I've collected from this thread is that I'm apparently an SFP. I'd much rather STJ hawkish scrutiny or attention than INTJ "pigeon holing" and/or ignoring me, assholes. ASSHOLES!!!!


Tell me how a wild SFP bait appears on such an N-ish site?

 

[RDF]

All I've collected from this thread is that I'm apparently an SFP. I'd much rather STJ hawkish scrutiny or attention than INTJ "pigeon holing" and/or ignoring me, assholes. ASSHOLES!!!!


Tell me how a wild SFP bait appears on such an N-ish site?

I see a lot of Se going on with you, Marm. IOW, you enjoy interacting with whatever ideas or experiences that get thrown out on the message board: you offer nuggets of information on your past interactions with those same ideas and experiences. Cast the net wide and play with all the varieties of ideas that get captured. Aggregate and compare - a useful function.

But yeah, it doesn’t necessarily go over well on a thread about Ni pigeonholing. It’s like I said about how Ni users don’t really appreciate Ne--they consider it dippy or flighty. In turn, the use of Se is probably going to seem diffuse, scattered, or arbitrary to an Ni-user.

As I understand it, Ni is trying to focus in tighter and tighter, finding the essence of things. Whereas Se is trying to cast a wider and wider net, pull in more and more outside things, in order to aggregate and compare and find categories. (Though neither of those is my function, so those descriptions may not be perfect.)

 

[entropie]

Is that an INTJ only phaenomena ? Cause otherwise I'ld have to type my whole SJ-office INTJ

 

[RDF]

Is that an INTJ only phaenomena ? Cause otherwise I'ld have to type my whole SJ-office INTJ

Of all the other perceiving functions, I think Si is going to be most like Ni: aggregating and comparing things in order to find the essence, the principle they share, etc.

 

[entropie]

Of all the other perceiving functions, I think Si is going to be most like Ni: aggregating and comparing things in order to find the essence, the principle they share, etc.

That makes sense

 

[Thalassa]

I see a lot of Se going on with you, Marm. IOW, you enjoy interacting with whatever ideas or experiences that get thrown out on the message board: you offer nuggets of information on your past interactions with those same ideas and experiences. Cast the net wide and play with all the varieties of ideas that get captured. Aggregate and compare - a useful function.

Do you think I'm ESFP instead of ISFP? Just curious, I always ask this, because some people think so.

But yeah, it doesn’t necessarily go over well on a thread about Ni pigeonholing. It’s like I said about how Ni users don’t really appreciate Ne--they consider it dippy or flighty. In turn, the use of Se is probably going to seem diffuse, scattered, or arbitrary to an Ni-user.

Interesting. But it's your tertiary or inferior funciton.

As I understand it, Ni is trying to focus in tighter and tighter, finding the essence of things. Whereas Se is trying to cast a wider and wider net, pull in more and more outside things, in order to aggregate and compare and find categories. (Though neither of those is my function, so those descriptions may not be perfect.)

YES THAT IS EXACTLY IT.

Thank you for describing such an important function to me, so well. Not just anyone could do this, in fact I find a lot of descriptions of it imperfect so this seems like a great fit. It sounds like how my mind works intellectually, when I'm not valuing things ethically or emotionally.

 

[WhoCares]

... you will do this, head pat. With an INTJ, I might actually feel...like they're disgusted with me. Like they actually think they aren't like me or I should be better somehow.

The dynamic is all wrong for me, I'm pretty sure. I always get the feeling I'm nice but don't especially matter, or don't matter at all.

And that feeling would be correct. INTJs aren't known for head patting, back slapping or congratulating people for being...people. We don't get that whole need
to affirm your humanity thing. In fact, we don't get that whole need to pay attention to reality thing if I'm being really honest. You're dealing with someone who's got a tenuous grip on what's happening around them most of the time alongside a lack of desire to illicit positive response from others. Of course that's going to look cold and judgmental. But it's pretty far from the mark on how we are personally feeling about you.

If I look back on the two ISFJ individuals I've spoken about here's how it went for me.

ISFJ makes some catty remark

My internal thought process - ok, so two bitchy individuals with an apparent dislike for me. Whats to hang around for?
Mental note now ensues to take no further notice of these people, ergo they no longer exist. My feeling about them is disinterest rather than disgust. Disgust would require me to think about them, take more mental notes and continue to observe them in order to fuel my disgust. That's a whole whack of my energy I can't be arsed spending upon people who have no relevance to my life. Given that they have already displayed a lack of regard for my feelings why would I want to garner their favour or know anything more about them than I already do?

I have a lack of interest in humanity as the object of my attention. A natural curiosity about other people is something inherently absent in me. Absence though, doesn't equal hatred, disgust or any other feeling. It's just absence of desire to know you or anyone else better, I am happy with our passing acquaintance.

 

[RDF]

Do you think I'm ESFP instead of ISFP? Just curious, I always ask this, because some people think so.

Got me. I really need to interact with people in person before I'll type them with confidence. Off-hand, I could even see you as an ESTP. That is, I register you as having the same kind of raw energy and bonhomie or enthusiasm as Halla74 and other ESTPs.

But I'm just throwing out alternatives to show how difficult it is to pin these things down on a message board. I really find it just about impossible to come to a firm decision on these things on a message board.

 

[Thalassa]

And that feeling would be correct. INTJs aren't known for head patting, back slapping or congratulating people for being...people. We don't get that whole need
to affirm your humanity thing. In fact, we don't get that whole need to pay attention to reality thing if I'm being really honest. You're dealing with someone who's got a tenuous grip on what's happening around them most of the time alongside a lack of desire to illicit positive response from others. Of course that's going to look cold and judgmental. But it's pretty far from the mark on how we are personally feeling about you.

If I look back on the two ISFJ individuals I've spoken about here's how it went for me.

ISFJ makes some catty remark

My internal thought process - ok, so two bitchy individuals with an apparent dislike for me. Whats to hang around for?
Mental note now ensues to take no further notice of these people, ergo they no longer exist. My feeling about them is disinterest rather than disgust. Disgust would require me to think about them, take more mental notes and continue to observe them in order to fuel my disgust. That's a whole whack of my energy I can't be arsed spending upon people who have no relevance to my life. My continued focus upon these people will only make me feel bad. Whatever they consider is 'wrong' with me will not become right simply because I work to garner their favour. Given that they have already displayed a lack of regard for my feelings why would I want to garner their favour or know anything more about them than I already do?

I have a lack of interest in humanity as the object of my attention. A natural curiosity about other people is something inherently absent in me. Absence though, doesn't equal hatred, disgust or any other feeling. It's just absence of desire to know you or anyone else better, I am happy with our passing acquaintance.

That's sad. I would probably laugh at what they said, ignore it, or agree with it and play off of it. It must be so hard to be a type that doesn't interact well or play well with other people's social bullshit, you don't see it as fun or funny (I do, and I did at ten years of age, though admittedly had problems with particular individuals until I was about 20 and super confident) ...I never think about that, about INTJs feeling lost or hurt by what people say. I mostly picture them just not caring, being apathetic or cold.

My natural curiosity about people defines me, so I can't fathom anything else, as your almost-opposite. I am not an ESFJ, so I am not SO much interested in people that it consumes me (believe me, SFPs play a more observational and comment role toward people than the deeply interactive one of the SFJ) ...but, yes, people are greatly important to me. I remember one of the reasons why I always felt like going crazy(as a concept, not a reality) scary, is because it might separate me from relationships with other people. I'm constantly consumed by things like social ideas and music and food and art, but mostly as how it relates back to PEOPLE. It's important as a separate entity because it has to do with people.

Absence of desire is deadness and boredom to me, though. I interpret it as a lack of passion, a lack of interest. No wonder I'd rather an ISTJ who at least needs me on some level, even if not on such a consuming level as myself or an ESFJ.

 

[Thalassa]

Got me. I really need to interact with people in person before I'll type them with confidence. Off-hand, I could even see you as an ESTP. That is, I register you as having the same kind of raw energy and bonhamie or enthusiasm as Halla74 and other ESTPs.

But I'm just throwing out alternatives to show how difficult it is to pin these things down on a message board. I really find it just about impossible to come to a firm decision on these things on a message board.

I have gotten ESTP before!!!! Maybe I am just a very Te ESFP.

Maybe I need to accept it, though I don't "feel" as an ESFP. My mother is an ESFP and says she is "shy." I look at her like she is insane, so maybe I am very much like her.

 

[WhoCares]

Absence of desire is deadness and boredom to me, though. I interpret it as a lack of passion, a lack of interest. No wonder I'd rather an ISTJ who at least needs me on some level, even if not on such a consuming level as myself or an ESFJ.

I would agree with you on that one. However I didn't say I had a lack of desire for anything, only for people. My life is very rich and full of curiosity for things outside the realm of humanity. I adore the other inhabitants of the planet and find them fascinating, I am also a musician and love music for the sake of music. My curiosity is for the expression of the sound, it's a voice I understand and connect easily with. Words and people, not so much.

 

[Coriolis]

That's sad. I would probably laugh at what they said, ignore it, or agree with it and play off of it. It must be so hard to be a type that doesn't interact well or play well with other people's social bullshit, you don't see it as fun or funny (I do, and I did at ten years of age, though admittedly had problems with particular individuals until I was about 20 and super confident) ...I never think about that, about INTJs feeling lost or hurt by what people say. I mostly picture them just not caring, being apathetic or cold.

No, people rarely do think about INTJs feeling hurt, and I actually would not blame them, since when it happens to me, I prefer not to dwell on it myself. It just seems so insubstantial and pointless. Now if you provide substantive interference with something I am trying to do, it is quite another story.

No, it is not at all hard to be largely ignorant of and uninvolved with other people's social BS. (If it were worthwhile, I would not characterize it as BS.) I find it remarkably freeing, based upon how bogged down I feel on the rare occasion when I get sucked into it. All the attention that other people devote to such things, I can devote to what is really important to me. For someone like you, the social interaction is important, so you pay attention to that. Just another instance of different strokes for different folks.

I'm constantly consumed by things like social ideas and music and food and art, but mostly as how it relates back to PEOPLE. It's important as a separate entity because it has to do with people.

You might be surprised at how many of the goals of INTJs relate back to people, the whole "making the world a better place" idea. When I fix a problem, or do something to help myself get ahead, especially if it took alot of effort, my first thought is always: everyone should be able to do/have this. What can I do to make it easer for others? The fact that we (I) don't relate that well to people on an individual and personal level does not mean that we have no regard for humanity.

In fact, that may the be saving grace of our form of pigeonholing. It is based on our best estimate of who you really are, and what you can do. We may be wrong, especially at the outset, but generally won't hold anyone to those arbitrary externally-fueled expectations that can be so limiting. We value your basic humanity, and want to see what you as an individual do with it.

 

[WhoCares]

You might be surprised at how many of the goals of INTJs relate back to people, the whole "making the world a better place" idea. When I fix a problem, or do something to help myself get ahead, especially if it took alot of effort, my first thought is always: everyone should be able to do/have this. What can I do to make it easer for others?

I have to say, yes this does apply to me in a convuluted way. I consider myself to be a fair minded person, I'm always seeking a kind of natural justice within any system. When I'm at work I'm always seeking to ensure all of us share the workload evenly for example, because to my mind it's unfair for anyone to shirk their responsibilities if they are being paid to be there. Some of the people I work with resent this aspect of me (I am the leader in my group), they dislike the fact they cannot do what they are accustomed to doing because I notice and insist they carry their load. They may curse me but they very likely do not understand that I require this of them for the benefit of the whole group and ultimately the benefit of the company we work for and it's customers. My focus is not just upon myself, but their focus is.

So while I am largely disinterested in knowing the minutae of individuals and their personal lives I am looking after the system that supports the people and I do care about the workplace being a fair place for all concerned. I do care about the quality of the work we do and I do put people in positions that leverage their personal abilities. I care immensely that our customers are not only getting what they paid for but are also being treated with respect and courtesy. I care about the larger reputation that our company has as a direct result of what we are doing.