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  1. #21
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    A post by Coriolis in the "Ask an INTJ" thread made me think about some possible explanation about how Ni works. The following is my take on how Ni works.

    Needless to say that this is but my view regarding this and could be way off target/wrong. Feel free to chime in with suggestions/questions/alternate explanations.

    I'll begin with the Quote I initially started to reply to.
    ---------------------------------



    Great points and I agree wholeheartedly. From what I have been able to gather from analyzing my Ni over the years, I have come to a similar conclusion. (Which might be subject to change..further disclaimers etc etc)

    As you pointed out, I too have noticed that Ni is not something "magical" but is actually the result of processing done in the unconscious surfacing to the conscious mind. I believe this is one of the fundamental differences between Ni and Ne. Ni is not about objects but about the interconnection between objects. Or to be more accurate, an INTJ would Abstract away objects altogether and concentrate on their functions/how they interact with the system. NE, imho seems to concentrate more about the objects than some unifying underlying quality which can be filtered from these objects.

    Ni would look at pots/cups/toys made from clay and abstract away the objects, concentrating on "clay" and its properties. Let’s call this the “clayness” . When the INTJ encounters another object made out of clay in the future..(eg; clay oven) the Ni would unconsciously use the “clayness” quality of all things made out of clay to predict how/and what this clay oven will do/interact with other things around it.

    As others have mentioned...Ni synthesizes information to arrive at ONE answer for a problem(real life or imaginary ). I hasten to add that Ni sometimes gives more than one answer (eg: say..maybe 5). An INTJ would then run Te over these answers and eliminate the ones that fail, resulting in one answer OR an answer that is slightly modified/fine tuned from the Initial version spewn out by Ni.

    The external world is not really “real” to the INTJ in the sense that it is but one “possible version/reality” and is subject to change all the time. Change is probably one of the very few constants thus the INTJ comes to distrust concrete “definitions” due to their oxymoronic nature( How does one define something with absolute certainty when everything in this world/universe is in a constant state of flux?).I have noticed this to be an issue that causes misunderstandings/miscommunication when dealing with other types, especially INTP’s. I hate to find concrete definitions for things because internally I find the notion very troubling, whereas the INTP with whom I am conversing with might find my reluctance a form of dismissal.

    Ni: An internal framework of connections between qualities/attributes?

    INTJ’s tend to accumulate these “connections” (eg : “clayness”) over the years into an intricate internal framework. However this framework is Not a framework of connections between objects, but imho is more of a connections between qualities/attributes. Imagine a 3D net, with a perfect sphere on each of the intersections. Also let us assume that there are an infinite number of intersections. ( such a net with infinite reflecting spheres is known as the “Indras net" in Hindu/Buddhist philosophy btw). Each sphere reflects all other spheres on the framework. This is analogous to a framework of connections.

    One sphere could be “clayness” , another could be “wetness”. The image of the “wetness” sphere reflected on the “clayness” sphere would be a connection between “wetness + clayness”. Thus an INTJ when encountering mud for the first time, could make accurate predictions about its attributes/what it might do almost instantaneously (which he then passes through the Te filter to eliminate incorrect/impractical answers). This I believe is what Ni does.


    Let us look at a real world example. Imagine an INTJ looking at some objects made out of clay, and some other objects/states of water.



    The INTJ starts extracting what he/she thinks to be the essential qualities of the aforementioned stuff and filing them away in its internal network of connections.

    In the following image, the "reflections" of other spheres on a sphere is the "influences" other qualities represented by those spheres have on the quality represented by the sphere we are considering.



    Each sphere is reflected on every other sphere. What I mean to imply by this image is that qualities/attributes all have some “effect” on everything else in the system. Sometimes the effect is very strong, sometimes microscopically small.

    The main advantage of this form of organization imho is that it allows the Ni to “switch its Pov at will”. For example it could look at a problem from the viewpoint if sphere 1. However if it decides that the problem would be better solved from a different view, it could switch to sphere 2 instantaneously without a need to re-compute all the connections again. (Edited to add: or the INTJ could also look at the same sphere from another angle..noting a different set of reflections on the surface, thus pointing at a different set of influences)The framework of connections (spheres in this example), is built over a lifetime, and cannot be re-built from scratch at will.

    There is a system of “weights” given to the connections between the spheres as well. In other words, these “weighted connections” allows the INTJ to quickly asses the relative influences each sphere will have on a problem at hand and eliminate almost all but about 4 or 5 factors(spheres, and their interconnection’s) which might influence the current problem they are working on.


    However as the INTJ learns new things/figures out connections between things they keep on adding these to the framework. This results in spheres being added, existing spheres getting modified, or the ‘weights” of the connections getting updated.



    Te will then go over the answers thrown up by Ni to quickly eliminate the ones which are wrong. The resulting answer will then be the one selected.

    I have to add that sometimes the resulting answer will be a slightly modified version of the initial one given by the Ni. While going over the answers Te would find some errors, which will then be fed into the internal framework. These changes will probably result in some minor tweaks to the framework…for example the weights given to the connections might be changed a bit…or some factor could be added to the milieu. Ni now pops a more “correct” answer which is filtered by Te again.

    In my opinion Te sees to check for “errors”. It does not “prove” that the answer is correct. It only shows that the answer is “not wrong” .



    What was meant to be a short post grew into a super lengthy one


    Nice post. You are really fleshing out some good definitions of Ni.



    I getting an overall thrust from this post that,

    Using Ni is like finding the least common denominator among variables.



    And I think you are right. Because it's not that Ni only looks for one answer for one thing, because life is rarely that simplistic or neat. It's that Ni looks for the best, most unifying way to unite many variables.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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  2. #22
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Ni is a blurry Ti. Olol!

    j/k, I'm pretty alien to Ni. Sometimes I think I can 'tap' into it. But that's probably just my Ti.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #23
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    It doesn't.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    No need to be so hostile.
    Her response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    thanks for proving my point.
    was not hostility. It was an Fi response to your misunderstanding her post, which felt invalidating to her. All she was saying was that Jung compared Ni doms to prophets, but didn't mean it as a compliment, and you interpreted that as poking fun and used language that said she was "unenlightened." She's an Se user, and usually can be taken at face value.

  5. #25
    Bunnies & Rainbow Socks Kayness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    Well I'm sorry if you think I'm poo-pooing on your comment. It was not my intention. You're going by your first impression jumping into that conclusion and it's not correct. If I recount my experience from a Ni-dom perspective it's not necessarily meant as criticism toward you. No need to be so hostile.
    Your sarcasm is really grating on me.

    Do you really, really want me to dissect everything that you said that I take issue with? I'm going to do it just in case my benefit of doubt is right - that you actually want to discuss and are open to my point of view but happened to just went by your impressions without seeking external clarification
    Would you be open to consider though that Ni from a dominant function position may be a stronger more complex experience than from tertiary?
    This is a, "when was the last time you beat your wife?" kind of question: loaded question.

    I could think of a few implications here, but one that most stands out to me is that you think I am not aware of the difference in the manifestation of functions in the dominant position vs. tertiary position. This would have been easily circumvented by utilizing an informative tone, because it takes away any presumption of motives from either side.

    There is an inherent openness ... "prophetic".
    If you are implying that I'm questioning Jung's validitiy - I'm not, but I am not too ready to fully integrate it to my understanding without further examination. See my reply to Daedalus below my reply to you. Also, you're not saying anything I haven't read in Jung's description of Ni and Ni types, and I want more than just an reiteration. I want a thorough deconstruction and analysis with adequate anchorage to external data. Just in case you're wondering, I'm not satisfied with his description of Fi and Fi type either.
    So it's quite complex and I find it unenlightened at times to poke fun at some people who use this type of language.
    What type of language, exactly?

    If you take my "Jung didn't mean it in a glorifying way" comment as some sort of a slight to Ni:
    I meant that Jung didn't mean it in a glorifying way because he wrote it in a very matter-of-fact tone. That's it. That's all there is to it. Don't read more into what's there, or if you do, check again with the source to see if your extrapolation is correct before you react accordingly. In this case, it's not. If you insist on not believing me and thinking that I'm lying to you in order to make you question your own perception all the while your 'hunch' is right all along, then please do me a favour and not reply. It also confirms my "running on your own impressions without seeking external validation" point, and that other thing Jung said about Pi 'devaluing the object.'

    If you think that cushions the impact of your post, don't. It seems inauthentic. If it was sarcastic, then it's even worse.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Her response:



    was not hostility. It was an Fi response to your misunderstanding her post, which felt invalidating to her. All she was saying was that Jung compared Ni doms to prophets, but didn't mean it as a compliment, and you interpreted that as poking fun and used language that said she was "unenlightened." She's an Se user, and usually can be taken at face value.
    I kind of gathered that, and perhaps my wording wasn't the best because it left room for that interpretation. However in all honesty I was not referring to HER specifically, thinking her unenlightened. I suppose it can be inferred. That was not intentional or on my mind as I wrote it. So my apologies if it hurt her feelings. I wasn't talking about her though. More on a general level as I am aware that in our culture generally speaking some words create immediate negative reactions, like "prophetic".
    What I did not like was the reaction which I thought was rude. If you accuse me of jumping into conclusions (which I didn't) while jumping into a conclusion, and then using me as some example...it's just ironic more than anything. And a bit rude, really. I would have apologized had there not been that kind of a reaction.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    Your sarcasm is really grating on me.
    Well your tone is really grating on me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    Do you really, really want me to dissect everything that you said that I take issue with? I'm going to do it just in case my benefit of doubt is right - that you actually want to discuss and are open to my point of view but happened to just went by your impressions without seeking external clarification
    And you are...???
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    This is a, "when was the last time you beat your wife?" kind of question: loaded question.

    I could think of a few implications here, but one that most stands out to me is that you think I am not aware of the difference in the manifestation of functions in the dominant position vs. tertiary position. This would have been easily circumvented by utilizing an informative tone, because it takes away any presumption of motives from either side.
    It's being conversational. We obviously have different conversational styles. I don't see why you're reading all this into my comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    If you are implying that I'm questioning Jung's validitiy - I'm not, but I am not too ready to fully integrate it to my understanding without further examination. See my reply to Daedalus below my reply to you. Also, you're not saying anything I haven't read in Jung's description of Ni and Ni types, and I want more than just an reiteration. I want a thorough deconstruction and analysis with adequate anchorage to external data. Just in case you're wondering, I'm not satisfied with his description of Fi and Fi type either.
    I'm not implying. Just discussing. Don't be so defensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    What type of language, exactly?

    If you take my "Jung didn't mean it in a glorifying way" comment as some sort of a slight to Ni:
    I meant that Jung didn't mean it in a glorifying way because he wrote it in a very matter-of-fact tone. That's it. That's all there is to it. Don't read more into what's there, or if you do, check again with the source to see if your extrapolation is correct before you react accordingly. In this case, it's not. If you insist on not believing me and thinking that I'm lying to you in order to make you question your own perception all the while your 'hunch' is right all along, then please do me a favour and not reply. It also confirms my "running on your own impressions without seeking external validation" point, and that other thing Jung said about Pi 'devaluing the object.'
    I really think you've read too many MBTI profiles and are taking out some INFJ angst out on me. I'm a person, not a type. You are one of the rudest and hostile people I've come across.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    If you think that cushions the impact of your post, don't. It seems inauthentic. If it was sarcastic, then it's even worse.
    You're so rude. Whatever. What's your problem? Jesus.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    You're so rude. Whatever. What's your problem? Jesus.
    I thought INFJs are among the very most diplomatic of all types, although based on your above responces, I am questioning that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I thought INFJs are among the very most diplomatic of all types, although based on your above responces, I am questioning that.
    This old cranky one isn't necessarily. Depends. That's why people shouldn't rely on web profiles so much. I'm sure there are many INTP stereotypes around that you may not feel reflect reality fully. It's just what it is, typing. Broad abstractions never do justice to singular cases. IRL I would be generally considered nice and accommodating, but It doesn't mean some people don't get on the wrong side of me. I have my buttons I don't like being pushed like any other person. It's a more complex issue. Some of it's cultural: I'm from a rough area, I've dealt with a lot in my life, I'm generally become much more open and frank about things with age and I really dislike typism. Why would someone just think they can come off telling me I jump into conclusion and go by some "hunches". My cognitive process preference is one thing and who I am and how it manifests is another...and how I expect to be treated by strangers is another too. I don't care what someone reads off of a profile on the internet they'd better not come tell me what I as a person do and don't do. They may be wrong. and yes. I am direct when peeved off. It's my personality.
    Last edited by Reverie; 06-28-2012 at 05:18 PM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    When I think of Ni, I imagine a person looking through a kaleidoscope. Ni is almost like wearing x-ray vision goggles. It allows you to see what others do not. With Ni, everything has a hidden meaning and hidden symbolism. Ni looks at something and analyzes, and analyzes until it comes to one universal truth (it's not like Ne where it believes that there are several things that could be true at once.) Ni is almost 3 dimensional, it gets an idea and just builds, and builds on that idea until it comes to a full understanding of something, then they get this "yes I understand" moment. Ni is also like a holographic image on a card, if you turn it one way, it sees this, and if you turn it another, it see's this. I hope this helps.

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