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  1. #11
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minutegovt View Post
    I read somewhere something like "an INTJ's leading function will not work with the triangle but instead come up with an entirely new triangle". Thanks for the article. Should I add that an INxJs breakthroughs might already exist or be completely useless? :P
    I have experienced the completely useless scenarios you mention...as Coriolis mentioned in his reply to your post, there were times when I thought "yes! this would work!" only to see it fail miserably when running the Ni 'answer" through the Te filter. This happens very rarely, but the fact that this does happen makes me Te test all my Ni answers. Often Te filtering does not take long as we are only testing if the answer would work in the given situation. So I would say all Ni users should use Te to test the answers their Ni dredges up before acting upon them

    I believe that some of the Ni doms who tend to be extremely paranoid/conspiracy theorists seem to let every Ni result run its course. I think of Ni as a wild horse sometimes...if and when reined in by Te, its really useful and lets us do things fast, however when not reined it...it takes us for a wild wild ride. Worse...such an Ni would let subsequent Ni answers feed off of his previous untested answers...resulting in some heavy duty paranoia/conspiracy theories.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    well, some Ni doms I come across on PerC would have us believe that Ni is this mystical function that magically bestows them with knowledge or enables them to see into the future or something. Even Jung said something similar in his description, "without this type of people, there would be no prophets of Israel" or something like that, but of course that wasn't written in a glorifying tone. But I feel like my Ni is just based on the object and my database of properties surrounding it - there's really no magic or whatever related to it at all.
    In a way those explanations are somewhat right on the money, because even though I try finding an explanation for how Ni works, I do not do all the "work" in an observable fashion in my mind. When a problem is presented and Ni is triggered...an answer (or a sequence of 'answers") pop up in the mind. It is possible, using Te to go back and validate them...and later when we have time also try to figure out how we arrived at these answers. Often its impossible(at least for me) to figure out why and how those "answers" popped up in the first place.

    One explanation I can think of is that because the framework of connections is pretty tangled, its impossible for the conscious mind to try to unravel this Gordian-ish knot. it is much much easier/faster to simply use Te to verify if the solution is workable for the problem at hand.

    Coupled with the "compelling' nature of the Ni, I usually go
    "Ok let me test this answer with te => it works =>is a valid solution for this problem==> end".

    Also I think Ni does not always get results from connected-topics to form an answer. Sometimes even seemingly totally unrelated information can play a part..even a significant one. Some reference from a Tom&Jerry cartoon used as a piece of information in formulating an answer to some engineering problem? Very possible!



    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    the only scenarios that I can think of right now in which I most use my Ni are mostly the ones involving people & interpersonal relations. Like, I have seen how things played out in the past, what triggered what chain of events or reactions, and all these are stored into this database. Then when I see something similar happening, I pull out information from the database to build a framework in which to anticipate & prepare for the outcome. Usually it involves pulling out bits and pieces of information I gathered from different events and put them together to form my projection of the event.
    For me it’s different. I mostly do not have conscious control over Ni processes.

    Usually works like this

    Problem needing a solution => Ni pops out an answer(s) => I run Te over it => Te either eliminates the unfit ones and chooses the correct Ni answer OR Te comes with some bugs/problems in the answers => This information is now defined as the "new problem" (Or rather the same problem with the Te discoveries included) => Problem needing a solution => Ni pops up answer(s)


    ^^ this loop continues till solution found. Often it only takes one or two runs.

    I believe this is also where the INTJ's contingency planning reputation comes in.

    Contingency == "Bug'/Problem found by Te

    ^^ when we run into some unforeseen problem with our plans, we run Te over it, which defines the problem (mostly adds the few new variables/changes) and pass it onto Ni. Which throws out an answer.

    Often when running Te over certain Ni answers we do a "what if scenario' and have Ni find a solution for it, just in case.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    However, this is only a part of it because in the end I'm always going to defer to the information that I receive in real time. I'm obviously not as attached to it as Ni doms; I've seen a few instances where the INTJs in my life are pretty much running on their own impressions even when there are solid, observable, external indications to the otherwise.

    bleh I dunno i'm kinda tired and it's hard to explain and I cant think of any specifics right now. hope it's not too confusing.

    Nah, I get what you mean. Some of us INTJ's tend to not use Te to check the Ni answer and end up being a bit out of touch with reality. However, there are times when our answers seem very correct to us(even after running Te over them) that we are under a sort-of-compulsion to make them work. It might seem kinda quirky to others but as Ni is often not easily explained, the INTJ's run the risk of being seen as acting contrary to reason.

    For example when I meet a new person, I might observe something in the way he interacts with others that might trigger a Ni response that says "this guy is not trustworthy". Of course I can run Te over it...but as it’s hard to prove/disprove this “hunch” empirically...I am left with the option of trusting my Ni or not. So how do I choose? I look at past history..and note that my Ni 'hunches' were mostly correct..thus I err on the side of statistics and chose to trust my Ni "hunch' about that guy.

    PS:
    Once a friend of mine introduced me to her friends. A guy in that group of friends was interested in dating her. I have not met those 3 friends of her previously. I remember looking at his face as I shook his hands. I remember that his face was about a few degrees tilted to the side, and his eyes seemed to have a hidden smile inside them even though they looked normal on the outside. All of a sudden Ni pops up “This guy cannot be trusted” in my mind. There is no explanation to why and how such a conclusion was reached. Usually I do not get Ni responses when I meet new people. But this was such a compelling Ni response that I have try not to show any sense of surprise on my face. (btw , tilted head, or secret smile in the eyes are by no means a "negative" attribute by itself in my mind. There was some strange combination of them..other unknown external factors which together made my Ni react)

    After debating with myself for a while about the validity of this Ni, I went ahead and warned my friend about this. I knew that if I said “I don't think you should date that guy cos I think he is bad news” it would not be received well.(even though my friend would have still probably followed my advice). However I do what I think most INTJ’s do in situations like this….I couched my message in some seemingly valid, but negative observations about him, and succeeded in making my friend believe that my negative impression of him was only based on the bad behavior of that guy. (yeah I know this sounds manipulative..but sometimes we INTJ's think the ends justify the means..especially if it involves people we care about)

    She took my advice and didn’t date him.Later she told me that she learned through some other friend that this guy was a player. My Ni was not wrong after all. It is events like these which make us INTJ’s to trust our Ni even on occasions when we supposedly should not
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In my experience, Te measures the Ni perceptions against some external context or constraints. It does not so much check for rightness as for causality and workability: will the perceived solution work in the current circumstance? How likely is the perceived prediction actually to come to pass given what is really happening in the outside world?
    I agree. Your explanation is better. It does check for causality and workability, often only related to the problem at hand, with the given resources. An identical problem might have a different solution tomorrow if the resources available were more/less.

    Sometimes I think INTJ's are more like Engineers as opposed to INTP's who are more akin to scientists.Scientific theory at times cannot be applied directly to real life problems...things such as tolerances, safety margins...weather...network latency....the law of diminishing returns...and other factors need to be compensated for.


    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Ni pulls together fragments of various memories, especially visual stimuli and combines it in such a way so that it is "harmonius" decreasing the cognitive load of the snippets so they can be experienced simultaneously
    Yep
    In a way Ni seems to be something that adheres to principle of the whole being bigger than the sum of its parts. Ni seems to synthesize seemingly unrelated things/stimuli/memories/ideas into something that has a connection to the problem at hand.
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  4. #14
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    i don't know how it really works, i already explain it in previous threads. all i know i can see problem from above.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I think all intuition anticipates sensing.

    Looked at that way, Ni is the work of knowing ahead of time what can come up in the moment. This is the same as saying "Ni is a rejection of Se". Instead of deigning to experience the physical moment, one sits back to draw up some collage of what is in all moments.

    Obviously this collage is haunted by what experiences you haven't had, what books you didn't read, all the things you don't know. Major efforts go into examining what you are aware of and drawing out themes and images that can be timelessly projected into the future to create foreknowledge.

    As to how that happens...
    Hey Kalach, I'll reply tomorrow, time for some midnight league of legends gaming with buddies
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    well, some Ni doms I come across on PerC would have us believe that Ni is this mystical function that magically bestows them with knowledge or enables them to see into the future or something. Even Jung said something similar in his description, "without this type of people, there would be no prophets of Israel" or something like that, but of course that wasn't written in a glorifying tone. But I feel like my Ni is just based on the object and my database of properties surrounding it - there's really no magic or whatever related to it at all.

    the only scenarios that I can think of right now in which I most use my Ni are mostly the ones involving people & interpersonal relations. Like, I have seen how things played out in the past, what triggered what chain of events or reactions, and all these are stored into this database. Then when I see something similar happening, I pull out information from the database to build a framework in which to anticipate & prepare for the outcome. Usually it involves pulling out bits and pieces of information I gathered from different events and put them together to form my projection of the event.

    However, this is only a part of it because in the end I'm always going to defer to the information that I receive in real time. I'm obviously not as attached to it as Ni doms; I've seen a few instances where the INTJs in my life are pretty much running on their own impressions even when there are solid, observable, external indications to the otherwise.

    bleh I dunno i'm kinda tired and it's hard to explain and I cant think of any specifics right now. hope it's not too confusing.
    Would you be open to consider though that Ni from a dominant function position may be a stronger more complex experience than from tertiary?
    Ni+Te also gives a different flavor to Ni+Fe which also deals with matters differently. It may have a more "prophetic" quality to it because it does not work in an empiric fashion, but deals with more nebulous type of "data" and the realm of human feelings. There is an inherent openness to that type of unworded experience which is hard to discuss. Some feel it's "mystical" in nature, most don't. One could also consider that some decidedly mystical terminology has been developed to describe certain type of experience and mechanic, that can in MBTI language be described in an at least slightly more "acceptable way" if you're looking to be more kosher in a modern scientific world. Let's say something new agey like "spirit guide" for example, i.e. something that manifests in images, words and understandings flashing in your mind at a given situation which reveal unapparent and accurate information which you seemingly should not know about a situation, thing. Sometimes in your own inner symbolic language. Sounds a bit Ni-ish in some sense, doesn't it? Not saying it necessarily is the same thing. May or may not be. I have to some degree experienced things like this and didn't think I was communing with a spirit guide. Some other person would. And from their context it would be the accurate term. So it's quite complex and I find it unenlightened at times to poke fun at some people who use this type of language. It actually is valid to say that you're guided in some respect and yes, Jung was right to comment on a "prophetic" nature, as someone coming up with correct future predictions with no apparent proof could be accurately described as "prophetic". I would personally refrain from that because it reminds people of a guy with an "End is nigh" sign parading the boulevard, or some kind of a pseudo-Jesus crank. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

  7. #17
    Bunnies & Rainbow Socks Kayness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    Would you be open to consider though that Ni from a dominant function position may be a stronger more complex experience than from tertiary?
    I'm sorry you didn't get that implication from my post.

    So it's quite complex and I find it unenlightened at times to poke fun at some people who use this type of language. It actually is valid to say that you're guided in some respect and yes, Jung was right to comment on a "prophetic" nature, as someone coming up with correct future predictions with no apparent proof could be accurately described as "prophetic". I would personally refrain from that because it reminds people of a guy with an "End is nigh" sign parading the boulevard, or some kind of a pseudo-Jesus crank. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
    If I recount some personal anecdote from a non-Ni dom perspective and expressing some sort of a frustration I experience in dealing with them sometimes, it's 'poking fun'? And yes, this is exactly what I was talking about in my post - running on impressions. Impressions that I was poo-pooing Ni, and then taken that to be true without bothering to ask for clarification. thanks for proving my point.

  8. #18
    Bunnies & Rainbow Socks Kayness's Avatar
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    @Daedalus - on a slightly tangental note, I'm with an ISTJ and he tells me that for most of the time, Si serves the Si doms well. I'm sure this is the same way for Ni. It's just the unchecked Pi that gives me a hard time.

    Anyway, thanks that anecdote. That actually makes me wonder what a 'hunch' is, as in, how to deconstruct it so that I may analyze it, because I'm willing to accept this explanation more than the 'it's mystical, etc.' one. You say that it's from the way they interact with others and body language. Perhaps that's Se, picking up external cues and then feeding it to Ni, which in turns generates extrapolations & the motivations associated with them, then to Te, which eliminates unlikely options given the situation, then to Fi, which evaluates the rest (this is what I was trying to do, given that mindset/motivation; this is good/bad)? Then this is all very subconscious within the user, so they don't realize they're using all these functions in tandem.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    I'm sorry you didn't get that implication from my post.


    If I recount some personal anecdote from a non-Ni dom perspective and expressing some sort of a frustration I experience in dealing with them sometimes, it's 'poking fun'? And yes, this is exactly what I was talking about in my post - running on impressions. Impressions that I was poo-pooing Ni, and then taken that to be true without bothering to ask for clarification. thanks for proving my point.
    Well I'm sorry if you think I'm poo-pooing on your comment. It was not my intention. You're going by your first impression jumping into that conclusion and it's not correct. If I recount my experience from a Ni-dom perspective it's not necessarily meant as criticism toward you. No need to be so hostile.

  10. #20
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    That's a really interesting perespective on Ni use. I can identify with a lot of it. I've always used my past experiences to project meanings to other things I encounter, and am usually good at forecasting traits and qualities of new items/people I encounter. I always thought the past experiences thing was an Se/Ni use, and that Ni dom use really was more "magical". :P But I suppose the only real difference is how the data is originally picked up. I originally pick it up with Se, then later that becomes part of the storehouse of data Ni uses. How Ni picks up data to use in the future is a little mind boggling to me.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

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